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New Section
Added a "Notable Blood Elves" section; some races have one, others don't, so I thought it seemed sensible to provide the blood elves with one now that they're coming out as a playable race. --Pure.Wasted 17:52, 30 September 2006 (EDT)
Spelling
I'm going to edit the article to maintain consistency with the official websites. Blood Elf will become blood elf, as it should all over the wiki (and as I have already done with draenei). You may berate me after this line :) -- Kirkburn 14:57, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
Oh, and I'll add a big red sign saying 'don't you dare turn me back!' liek I did with the draenei. We should also really be doing this to all references to class type (rogues, shamans, etc), as they are also incorrectly capitalised. And high elves. Well, it's a lot of work to be done. Join me in the edit war! -- Kirkburn 15:01, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
On the same topic, the page should be moved to Blood elf, but I shan't do that yet. -- Kirkburn 16:20, 14 August 2006 (EDT)
As is most likely obvious, I have just completed the move :) Next up, ngiht elves. Thanks to those making sure the race names stay correct! -- Kirkburn 10:46, 21 August 2006 (EDT)
I've put up a vote to make lower-case race names the standard policy. WoWWiki_talk:Policy/Writing#Race_name_case--Aeleas 14:15, 21 August 2006 (EDT)
Well, all this is strange, since when you mark a Blood Elf in-game it saids "Blood Elf (class)" with both words starting with a capital letter. How do you explain that?--Odolwa 23:22, 29 November 2006 (EDT)
Because it's a title and all titles are capitalized. In quest dialogues and such you will see species an races spelled in undercase.--Grid 17:54, 29 November 2006 (EST)
Opening paragraph
Is there any reason why the opening paragraph of this article is all in italics with lines around it? I think just a standard intro is cleaner.--Aeleas 20:35, 22 August 2006 (EDT)
Meh. I think basically ALL BC topics have something like that. And after a second look, ALL races have that. Or the ones I bothered to check. It's just a small blurb anyways. Pzychotix 21:16, 22 August 2006 (EDT)
I'd say italic intros are fairly common around the wiki. But the horizontal separator lines are not, and, in my opinion, they look quite bleh. --Mikk 05:23, 23 August 2006 (EDT)
Introduction and History
This section has some points that don't make sense. First of all, what does "Most of what was left of Quel'thalas was burned down by the High Elves, in an effort to give the scourge a psychological victory and leaving the few High elves left who were making their last stand on Sunstrider isle" mean? Does the author mean the High Elves were trying to deny the Scourge a victory? And what source is he/she getting this from? Second, this history ignores the bifurcation between the Blood Elves of Quel'thalas and the Blood Elves of Outland - as the WoW history page on the Blood Elf notes, Kael took a bunch of warriors with him but left behind the rest of his people. These Blood Elves never encountered the naga, or Illidan, or the draenei, and didn't go to Outland or Icecrown. This is an especially important point in the storyline because it sets up a division between Lor'themar's Quel'thalas-based elves, and Rommath/Kael's Outland-based Elves.
The follow-up history section also lacks sources. I know for a fact that Blood Elf zones have Forsaken allied NPCs in them, quests involving the Forsaken's assistance, and a quest where you visit Sylvannus, etc. However, unless it's grounded in lore or in-game, I think it needs to be left out.
EDIT: Likewise, this new Uneasy Trusting section lacks foundation. I further wouldn't characterize Lor'themar Theron and Halduron Brightwing as Sylvannus loyalists.
Vikingkingq
They aren't. Loth'remar's relationship with Sylvanus is still unknown, but his devotion to Kael'thas is obviously well documented. Although we can't make any firm judgments, I did edit those parts dealing with their relation with each other. I doubt they like each other but from what we know in-game, they can atleast tolerate each other enough to create instantaneous travel between the Undercity and Silvermoon, which takes an enormous amount of trust on each faction leader's part. From what we learn of Halduron Brightwing in the Sunewll trilogy we can pretty safely assume he grudgingly buys into drawing from fel magic to feed because there is no other alternative, and he keeps Anveena's true nature a secret.
I've adjusted most of the history to reflect this. I also added in why blood elves are the way they are and how it characterizes them at the end of the culture stub, and all the posts about their controversy bar the Paladin stub were authored by me.
Could whoever is adding that addendum of how warriors didn't have a place in quel'dorei/sin'dorei society please give me good backing on it? Because as I recall the elves were not shy in the slightest about using men in armor, and forest fighting in fantasy and in actual history does NOT put disfavor upon armored men.
Armor is armor no matter where you go, and it's always an advantage. Even in water, granted it won't be deep.--Grid 10:44, 10 November 2006 (EST)
Playable Race Section
Do not add more Blood Elf Warrior, "comments" to this page they are flooding it, Blood Elves dont have Warriors it should be mentioned once or twice thats all thats needed. Explanations like that in "Lore and Gameplay Reasoning Behind the Elimination of Blood Elf Warriors" and the classes note should be enough to explain to people why they do not have Warriors if more comments about this are added I will delete them on site. Thank you for your time and understanding. Solare
"Blood elves are the physically weakest out of all the races of the Horde. The orcs, trolls and tauren are far superior to them in size, weight, strength and speed, each in different but always superior degrees for the respective races. So logically for blood elves, who are also the world's greatest arcanists and a culture where all blood elves from all walks of life are proficient in magic, their melee soldiers would supplant their abilities with their far superior affinity and grasp of magic than the other Horde races."
Like I keep adding, Paladins wield huge, heavy swords, maces, and shields, and wear plate armor. This doesn't explain why Blood Elves do not get Warriors (with all due respect, is ONLY because of balancing). -AzraelOpacus
Paladins are not warriors, however. They have the power of the Light to aid them, for example. In any case - the point of the section is to explain why don't don't have warriors over any of the other choices. Warriors make least sense for BE to have as an option, not that they don't deserve or have them at all. So what if paladins make as little sense as warriors to you - whether or not they got paladins was never an issue, as they are a big part of the new lore. Blizzard had to make a choice between warriors and hunters, and hunters make more sense. It's all relative ...
In response to Solare, while I support your view, please do not become too protective of the section of the article :) -- Kirkburn (talk) 10:30, 7 September 2006 (EDT)
I agree with Azrael on this one; the paragraph's current wording implies that blood elves couldn't be warriors, or that they would make inferior ones, but that's not the case. It's simply not a playable race/class combination. The paragraph which follows also indicates that they don't have a strong warrior tradition, yet high elven swordsmen were a very common unit in War3.--Aeleas 14:02, 7 September 2006 (EDT)
Think of it this way: There ARE blood elven warriors, but you just can't play them because a) Their numbers may be too few and b) Blizz felt like it. =p --Kakwakas 15:11, 7 September 2006 (EDT)
Exactly, which makes the paragraphs attempting lore-based explanation regarding the lack of BE warriors not only speculative, but incorrect.--Aeleas 16:17, 7 September 2006 (EDT)
Having reviewed the section, it does not (and does not mean to) suggest that blood elven warriors do not exist. They do. However, there are likely more blood elven hunters, and they are more appropriate for where Blizzard wishes to take WoW. Blood elven warriors are probably quite good, but blood elves as a race are not predisposed to it, so fewer would gravitate towards such a life. To compare this to real life, look at who wins long-distance running - people from certain areas of the globe are better prepared for running due to their genes - this doesn't suggest there are no amazing european runners, for example, but that there are fewer.
Aeleas, in WC3 warriors/grunts are the main soldiers of the forces and it would be to disruptive to the gameplay to alter that, whether or not it is accurate. I would also be interested what sections you feel are incorrect?
Just to make this clear - the lore reasoning is suggesting why warriors are less appropriate, it is not saying at any point that warriors do not exist or are useless. In conclusion, I see no problem with the section, but have added a note to make it clear that it is not suggesting BE warriors are non-existant. -- Kirkburn (talk) 16:18, 7 September 2006 (EDT)
I find the entire thrust of the second and third paragraphs of the section to be misleading and unfounded. There is no evidence that BE are not predisposed to being warriors, that they would be weaker than an undead warrior, or as I said above that there wasn't a strong warrior-like tradition. The fact that high eleven swordsmen may have been demanded by gameplay mechanics in War3 doesn't invalidate the fact that they were included.
I haven't seen any lore-based explanation for why BE warriors aren't playable from Blizzard, so I don't see any reason for us to invent one, or even assume there is one.--Aeleas 16:28, 7 September 2006 (EDT)
Okay, I see where you're coming from. I still don't think it is really inaccurate - we know the high elves are weakened, and the blood elves get their power (to bring them above the high elves) from magic. Warriors in WoW do not use magic to any great extent, which should suggest that they would not get as much of this strength. Regarding the idea of them being proficient as rangers - this is pretty evident from everything we know, and I'm not sure why you disagree with it :/
To your second point, I have altered the title to better explain the section ("Suggested..."). And though we may not have heard an exact reason from Blizzard, they have told us that they felt hunters were more appropriate - the section aims to suggest why they would have felt this. -- Kirkburn (talk) 18:32, 7 September 2006 (EDT)
I didn't object to the fourth paragraph which explains their skill at being rangers. I'm content with the section as it is; while it does stray into speculation, the title now reflects this as per WW:LORE. Still, to my mind everything after the second sentence could be covered by the sentence "The Hunter class is the best match for continuing the tradition of high elven rangers and archers, which been have portrayed in the past as more central to the race than melee fighters." Getting into their alleged weakness (a warrior could be strong with demonic energy, just as he was presumably strong with the energy of the Sunwell in the past), discussions of the ruggedness of the terrain, orc warlocks in Orgrimmar etc. doesn't, for me, add anything beyond that initial statement.--Aeleas 18:58, 7 September 2006 (EDT)
To be perfectly honest, I don't think that most of the fourth paragraph belongs either. Unless anyone can come up with a convincing reason why that paragraph (the most speculative part or the section) soon, I shall remove much of it. -- Kirkburn (talk) 19:15, 7 September 2006 (EDT)
At the very least, that paragraph has some major wording issues. From the very start, it sounds speculative and apologetic. It needs to be better worded/editted. Pzychotix 00:33, 8 September 2006 (EDT)
I've never read anywhere that the Holy Light gives a bunch of supposed (since there were High Elven Knights in WC3) weaklings enough strength to wield Ashkandi. The paragraph is just a bunch of bull made up to justify Blizzard's decision lore-wise, when there was none to begin with! -AzraelOpacus
Woah, it was a suggestion, as is the section itself (as is noted in the title, if you would kindly take a look). And no, there were reasons for the choice, because it was made wasn't it? They felt hunters were more appropriate, and the section is attempting to suggest why. In addition, you completely ignored my explanation earlier of why it doesn't prevent any classes existing for any races. For god's sake, listen, please!
Since the fourth paragraph is rattlign nerves and causing less-than-critical thought, I'll see what I can do about it now. -- Kirkburn (talk) 16:12, 8 September 2006 (EDT)
Everyone is thinking it, I'm just saying it: It is obvious that Blood Elves would get every non-nature caster class. They would get Warlocks, Mages, and Priests because they're magic users. It was also necessary to give them Pallies, because the decision was made to give each faction the other faction's class. At this point, you have 2 open spots for Blood Elves. They won't be shamans or druids because they have no appreciation for nature. That leaves Rogues, Hunters, and Warriors. If you don't give them rogues then you've imbalanced the horde because they already have the only class that can't be a rogue. That leaves Warriors, and Hunters. The weight against warriors was overwhelming... horde has no shortage of warriors already, and giving elves the archery class probably appealed to Blizzard's marketing team... Piroko 13:48, 11 September 2006 (EDT)
I'm just wondering, Lore wise, Why they have rogues.--D3115 19:21, 19 October 2006 (EDT)
Because they can ! They're swift, they're cunning, they're somehow dark enough to be assassins, they're called "Blood" Elves, and so said Blizzard.--K) (talk) 19:30, 19 October 2006 (EDT)
I just discovered this disucssion page, and let me hop in and say this first.
I am the guy who wrote all the stubs about why blood elf warriors are NOT found in the Horde, in the sense we know them as. All rank-and-file blood elf warriors are in touch with magic in some sense, such as the Blood Knights or Spellbreakers, and obviously being the only race who could play a Spellbreaker would be highly debilitating. Alot of it was guesswork on my part, but its a part of lorecrafting in my opinion, and if the connections are firm then its fact. I'll walk you guys through my logic, and feel free to interpret however you want if you see holes in my argument.
All blood elves need magic now more than ever since the absence of the Sunwell. Part of relieving their addiction involves using magic on a daily basis as well as feeding from it. Therefore, the complete elimination of 'regular' warriors from blood elf society. How do rogues and hunters fit in then?
Because you don't need to be exceptionally powerful to be a hunter or a rogue. If you look up any WarCraft RPG book, you will find that the blood elves ARE certainly the most physically inferior race out of all the Horde races. Their weaknesses compared to trolls, orcs and taurens are already immediately obviously. The Forsaken may not be so obvious, until you realize that the Forsaken have no need to breath air (Adjust to very big breath in-game as a balancing measure), their muscles never flag or tire and many Forsaken warriors are imbued with unholy strength in their dead tendons.
But basically, it comes down to a gameplay decision. Period. Blood elf hunters, in Blizzard's opinion and probably mine and most of yours, are simply a much more interesting play choice than a blood elf warrior. Nothing in the stubs I made are saying that blood elves CAN'T be warriors. Even a murloc can be a warrior. But would they be good ones, especially if they have essentially nothing special to offer compared to other far superior warriors in their faction? Probably not. And probably why they would depend on their strengths in lending to the war effort - magic classes, agility classes, etc.--Grid 11:06, 10 November 2006 (EST)
I've done some digging around and I think I've found a possible explanation for the 'no warrior' issue for the blood elves. If you look at their official race history in chapter five, Kael'thas took the healthiest of his warriors and joined the campaign against the Scourge. So, this probably meant that the stronger, more physically able-bodied blood elves had joined Kael'thas and are now probably in Outland. Those left behind were the ones more severely affected by the loss of the Sunwell, most likely magic users (Priests, Mages, Warlocks, etc.). As for Rogues and Hunters, their presence can be explained through the group known as Farstriders, who're often away from Quel'thalas hence weren't there during the initial massacre and when Kael'thas returned. This is not to say that the Silvermoon blood elves don't have warriors but as far as a playable class goes, there are too few of them since most of them are in Outland with Kael'thas. -- mr. peasant 21:00, 14 November 2006, (GMT)
Thanks for the addition, but I think this topic is dead at this point. I have two reasons. 1) The sentence "this does not mean that blood elven warriors may not exist in the Warcraft universe, only that they are not a playable class" is a catch-all for the problems this might create with lore. So, all lore reasoning to support why warriors are not playable for blood elves are simply invalid. 2) The rest of the section, though plausible, is speculative, emphasizing notions such as culture, terrain, tradition, etc. that don't necessarily need to be emphasized because of the first statement. In my opinion, we shouldn't spend any more time on this, since it's quite possible the folks at Blizzard could change their mind anyway at some point in the future, invalidating the entire section. User:Montag/sig 16:31, 14 November 2006 (EST)
The whole "culture doesn't favor armored men" stuff is a load of garbage. Anyone who asserts that armored soldiers are liabilities in a wooded fight... Please. Go into the woods and have your friend wear armor and you wear nothing and start swinging at each other with swords, and lets see who wins. We've all seen high elven warriors and we all know they're very common, but also it is our job to construct lore around a gameplay decision - e.a, why suddenly night elves of both genders can pursue the path of being a druid OR warrior. That said - I defend my previous statements of why they are not found as a playable class in the Horde, and if your argument is that this is speculation (Even if you were to argree with me that it's pretty good speculation in my opinion), then where does the information of Sylvanas and Loth'remar being buddy buddy come from?--Grid 03:43, 15 November 2006 (EST)
The Wc3 game mechanic is also garbage. Night Elves' main Grunt/Footman unit was the Archer. The weakest, but easiest to mass, and was also ranged. The High Elves got this as ranged (i.e. Headhunter/Rifleman), and got the Human Footman as their main melee unit renamed the 'Swordsman' and using the 'Captain' model. So there. The whole game mechanic thing is a load of bull. The reason is Blizz got lazy and decided to make High Elves a simple mix of Humans and Night Elves. Saimdusan 02:32, 7 December 2006 (EST)
Horde Relationships
I am wary of the "Relationships with the Other Horde Races" part of the article. Where did this information come from? I don't want to change it back myself just incase but it looks like something made up. Also I think someone needs to take time to touch up the layout of the page, it is getting messy. --Pigzig 08:50, 8 September 2006 (EDT)
From various sources and inferred information. There are many lore books that probably dictate this relationship, and obviously some speculated information too, but for the most part, it's decent enough. Pzychotix 05:35, 8 September 2006 (EDT)
I disagree, this isn't anything on blizzards site or books and unless proven needs the boot. Just look at it, obviously fan written. --Pigzig 17:48, 11 September 2006 (EDT)
Even if it's not all official information, the info I believe is based mostly off the assumptions of the core race at hand. Out of all the relationship paragraphs, only the Orc one could be seen as "made up". The Tauren and Troll relationships aren't even Blood Elf specific; they're statements about those races that really wouldn't matter if it were random aliens. Finally, the Blood Elf - Forsaken relationships only stated the facts of the matters that occurred between the two factions. That certainly wouldn't be "made up". Pzychotix 23:04, 13 September 2006 (EDT)
I would agree that it is written in a rather authoritative tone without having any sort of source to back it up. If it is speculative or conjecture, it should be labelled as such, and preferably moved to another article, as per WW:LORE.--Aeleas 02:02, 14 September 2006 (EDT)
Well, after days of it annoying me I decided to remove it from the page myself. If anyone wants to contest can you give us some proof? --Pigzig 01:34, 17 September 2006
It wasnt all made up, however. Some of it is obviously true, like the fact that the elves and trolls had been at odds, and the blood elves and forsaken may hate eachother due to scourge/high elves. from my memory, it didnt specifically state "forsaken and blood elves hate one another!", it simply said that in the past they had. same with trolls. From what we know (that blizzard has stated) the orcs let them into the horde because the blood elves are much like the orcs were; under demonic control.
What we DO know is that the blood elves are in the horde, but the kael blood elves are not, to the best of our knowledge, in any way. The forsaken and the blood elves hated eachother in the past, and given its only been 3 and a half years, it is entirely possible they may still hate them. the trolls, despite being a completely different race of trolls, were the elves mortal enemies for millenia, and some of that may still linger on. the orcs were under demonic control, and the blood elves are to a small extent. the tauren want harmony in all things, and demonic magic certainly isnt harmonious. and its pretty obvious how they feel about the humans(who they hate) night elves(who hate them), and at least how some of the blood elves view the draenei(as followers of the naaru, simple tools for their power)--Haddon 03:55, 21 September 2006 (EDT)
I'm going to take contention to one point mentioned above, specifically the "troll relationship not being blood elf specific." The trolls and high/blood elves hate each other. They've hated each other for a long time and they continue to hate each other today. They both evolved from a common stock, but throughout history from the days when the highborn were exiled, they've competed for the same territories; the elves trying to drive out the trolls, and the trolls resisting. Honestly, their relationship is not much different then the Israeli-Palestine conflict, or the Irish-English conflict. They simply hate each other because they've been hating each other as long as the current generation can remember (the elves DO have generational turnover thanks to warfare). Of course, that animosity can be overcome for a common clause, although without the Orcs and Tauren it wouldn't work. Now, the Forsaken on the other hand... well, I find the forsaken being in horde to be a little over the top. They should have gotten goblins instead. The forsaken are anti-life. They're openly and actively trying to kill all life on Azeroth (human and non-human alike) and the horde simply can't be so obvilivious as to not be aware of it. For the blood elves, their bretheren who fell to the scourge ARE dead. They aren't good beings beset with evil... they are evil incarnate residing in the flesh of good people now deceased. Any good will the forsaken might harbor must obviously (to their eyes) be a deception to further their aims of obtaining whatever powers the highborn have obtained and kept from the scourge. By all rights the Silvermoon npc guards should cut down any forsaken that approach silvermoon, while humans and their allies would be regarded with angry contempt but not outright murderous hatred. Piroko 12:35, 25 September 2006 (EDT)
I thought this needed mention: the aforementioned sindo-troll feud is only true from the blood elven faction, and even then is debatable. Not only have the high elves and jungle trolls never met prior to now (on a large scale; apart from the Battle of Hyjal, of course), the blood elven grudge against them would be entirely baseless. It's the Amani trolls they've been fighting for thousands of years, and while "trolls are trolls" the two are very distinct, physically and through their mindset. Just as it's been argued time and time again that only stupidity and ignorance is provoking the orc vs. human conflict to continue at this point, there could be hostile feelings from the blood elves (entirely from ignorance) toward the jungle trolls of the Horde; however, as they are attempting to join the other races, this forces them to listen to the trolls' explanation of their 'angle' of things, so to speak (the two have no reason to be at odds; these trolls only want peace, relatively speaking), and the two should have no trouble overstepping their differences. --Pure.Wasted 17:42, 30 September 2006 (EDT)
Not only taht, but the blood elves ARE NOT THE HIGH ELVES. they were decimated by the scourge, who the forsaken are not a part of, and most of them either never were, or were after quel'thalas fell anyway. the blood elves may be physically they same, but their minds are no longer the same at all. they are not the same culture.
And the blood elves hating the trolls and forsaken would be like the entire american society hating people from india, because their skin to close to the color of middle-easterners, some of which attacked america...the jungle trolls never fought the high elves. the forsaken never fought the high elves. there is only speculation as to them hating eachother.--Haddon 17:55, 1 October 2006 (EDT)
Let me do a summary on the Blood Elves' relationship with the Horde's races
Orcs: Distrust and Unfriendly. Most Orcs probably hate Elves and most Elves probably hate Orcs. Remember, the Orcs razed forests in and around Quel'Thalas during the Second War. Orcs probably hated Elves for killing many of them using magic and arrows and stuff. It is only under special circumstances and Thrall's goodwill that the Blood Elves managed to join the Horde.
Trolls: Curiosity and Distrust. Elves and Amani Trolls have been killing each other for ages but for the first time, the Blood Elves are actually looking face to face with a different breed of trolls. Some will be friendly, some will sterotype trolls as a whole.
Tauren: Curious and slightly friendly. Blood Elves and Tauren have never met prior to the Third War. The Blood Elves have respect for nature(though not affinity), as do the Tauren. There is absolutely NO REASON for them to hate each other.
Forsaken: This is interesting. Some Hatred, Some Friendly, Some LOVE. Many forsaken were Lordaeron Men but MANY are also Quel'Thalas high Elves. This would mean it is entirely possible for family members to be on both sides. Others would stereotype undead as a whole just like the trolls.
--Invin Dranoel 10:50, 15 October 2006 (EDT)
That stub was also made by me. Fan-written. I drew my own comparisons, piecing together the information I garnered from each race from various WarCraft RPG books. This speculation lies upon the grounds that the Horde are much much more forgiving and accepting than the Alliance races are. From behavior you can garner in-game now, in BC and from the past their policies are generally very inclusive. The Horde is a faction that is all about second chances. The Forsaken were included into the Horde because of the shaman and druidic elements within the Horde, and prior to that, the cannibalistic trolls were also allowed membership. Now this extends to the blood elves.
I can see the same Good Samaritan episode played out here. We can all see how the ruling elements of the Horde can see them as a people in need, and also obviously as a very powerful weapon and a new Horde presence of power in the Eastern Kingdoms. And most of all, I can see their relationship being the most interesting with the orcs and Forsaken. It is obvious what the blood elf relationship with orcs will be. Orcs as a race are not judgmental - you can find this in source material and in-game, and it is largely because the taurens took them under their wing even though both races were complete strangers to one another. The demonic energies that blood elves need to feed on constantly everyday is something any older orc - and therefore, someone in a position of power within the Horde - can easily empathize with. The Forsaken were the easiest to do. Although its iffy to say they're all going to be throwing Sweet 16s for each others kids, there is definately enough of a camaraderie or forced friendship to warrant Sylvanus and Loth'remar building instantaneous travel from Silvermoon to the Undercity. Also, lets not forget Sylvanus was a quel'dorei in her previous life, even though she completely relinquished her previous identity, and many of the Forsaken were former Scourge culled from the Battle of Quel'Thalas. That means they're high elves, and most likely some of them are 'deceased' friends or family of blood elves.
And for the record - all trolls and elves hate each other, just like all humans and orcs would hate each other. The typical Alliance human finds no difference between an orc of Thrall's Horde or a fel orc or a orc of Rend's Horde. The utter annihilation of several entire human nations has lended to that perspective. Likewise, close to around a thousand years of war against elf and troll - all kinds of trolls and quel'dorei - will lend to this perspective also. Obviously some understanding has to be reached now that the two are allied, but blood elves are a long-lived race and therefore very slow to forget.--Grid 11:06, 10 November 2006 (EST)
Azeroth blood elves vs Outland (Kael) blood elves
I was reading the article concerning the high elves and came accross the "Splintering" paragraph. It refers to how the Kael's blood elves are most likely a different "faction" of the "playable" blood elves, since all Horde (and Alliance) players, including blood elves, will obviously be able to raid Tempest Keep and (most likely) kill Kael. The current blood elf article simply states that they are trying to reunite with Kael. Now, it's pretty obvious that at some point their motivations will change, and since WoW is a very linear MMORPG, I doubt there will be an awesome plot twist to illustrate this change. I thus can only guess that, right from the start, it will be clear in the game that the Azeroth (playable) blood elves are different from the ones residing in Outland. All this to say that I think we should add at least a small note to the article, to clarify that, over the course of the game, the Azerothian blood elves will move against Illidan and Kael. Reading the article now makes people believe that they are all loyal to Kael, which is obviously not the case. Just a thought. --DarthMuffin 23:03, 15 September 2006 (EDT)
At the moment, they ARE loyal to kael, however, during the events of wow:tbc, it will likely turn out that kael either has become mad due to following illidan, and thusly kil'jaedan, or you wont fight kael at all. indeed, it is entirely possible that the blood elves will be neutral, or trying to find some way with both factions on how to free illidan, kael and vashj from kil'jaeden, as its obvious none of them wants to work for him, but they want his power.
obviously, its all my speculation, but i dont think anything should be added until we know for sure if we will fight kael, kill kael, or if hell even be in game as anything more than an NPC. it is entirely possible we will fight kael, vashj and illidan, not kill them, and they will return for more later (as i think kel'thuzad will, as well). bliz said at blizcon last year, you dont so much kill illidan as you do get in his way. i can only hope the same goes for kael and vashj, both of which are great characters i would hate to see die to a bunch of nameless players--Haddon 04:00, 21 September 2006 (EDT)
Just to throw my 2 cents in:
The Blood Elves of Azeroth are loyal to Kael because, except for Rommath and his crew, they don't know what he's been up to. Most likely, as Haddon noted, they will find out that he's become one of the Wretched (was the Winnowed in an earlier build) - a Blood Elf who's lost control over their addiction and has become violently insane. At this point, the Blood Elves face a quandery - do they kill their beloved prince or do they follow him into madness?
My guess is that there will be a civil war, similar to the Onyxia event with Lady Prestor. Lor'themar Theron has relatively little reason to follow a mad Kael - Kael wasn't there when Lor'themar held the nation together with what was left of the Ranger Corps, and Lor'themar doesn't need Kael's demonic magic if Lor'themar can get Anvenena the Living Sunwell to produce arcane magic for his people. Rommath, on the other hand, has drunk the koolaid - his status and power depend on his access to Kael and the Outland magic.
Vikingkingq
The added paragraph "Uneasy Trusting" kind of answers this question. Can anyone confirm the source though? There's also quite a few spelling/grammar mistakes in there. --DarthMuffin 23:00, 18 October 2006 (EDT)
That's the problem - my info isn't straight-up proven. It's a best-guess coming from what we already know, but I have no idea if it's right, and I'm not so happy with it being treated like fact.
Vikingkingq
That was me again, on a ressurected controversy stub on why the blood elves we're allied with aren't going to be crazy demon harlots.
What we saw of Kael'Thas was a strike force he took along with him. The majority of blood elves were probably sent to reclaim Quel'Thalas, and this also plays into the other stubs I wrote, particularly why they can't speak Common. It's highly likely most of these blood elves were refugees from Quel'Thalas that were sent elsewhere, and not veterans from the other Great Wars, and thus would not have much contact with humans much less Common. We can also assume with how busy Kael was fighting not many messages got through to Halduron and Loth'remar, so they remain largely unaware of exactly what their Prince was searching for or what he found. Either way, they obviously will not be on good terms with each other, since both Horde and Alliance get kill him and his followers in the expansion.--Grid 11:10, 10 November 2006 (EST)
-Firelord-
Did some of you played Wc3:The frozen throne? You will know what are the motivation of Kael to follow Illidian. To refresh your mind, let's do a little Wc3 history... When Arthas invaded Silvermoon to resurect Kel'Thuzad, he needed a powerful source of energie to transform the dead necromancer into a mighty Lich. He used the Sun Well of the High Elf to transform the remain of the former Necromancer into a chilling lich, corrupting the well by the way. After leaving the remaining High Elf, those ones where not able to continue there lives without a powerfull source of energie. Why? Cause the elven races where always addicted to the magic they used. When it cames out, they needed to find an another one. The most of them followed Kael Sunstrider to find a new way of survival. Kael named the remaining high elf who were traveling with him: The Blood Elf due to the extermination leaded by Arthas. In conclusion, the Blood Elf should be friendly to Kael if they are calling there own race Blood Elf! The Tempest Keep is a problem, cause the last BOSS will be Kael, everyone know this. Kael followed Illidian cause he promise to help him find a source of magic. Illidian is completely mad due to his fight against Arthas where he failled, but, in his mind, he still think he won the battle. But BLIZZ say that he fear the comming of is 2 greatess ennemies, Arthas or Kil'Jaeden! This is impossible cause if he think he killed Arthas, then he would not have to fear Arthas. Ans he would not have to fear Kil'Jaeden if his work is done... This will leave many question...---Firelord- 20:17, 14 December 2006 (EST)
Undercity Reputation
"At E3 the blood elves had no Undercity reputation bar on their reputation tab, so blood elves may only tolerate the forsaken and not be able to raise reputation with them. This could be explained because of the blood elves distrust of the undead after the ravaging of Quel'thalas at the hands of the Scourge, but this is just speculation."
Seeing as how the game is undergoing semi-public testing right now, would anyone be able to confirm (as I strongly suspect) that Blood Elves now have an Undercity reputation tab? I would assume that sort of information would be finalized by now, and this should be updated. --Pure.Wasted 01:19, 5 October 2006 (EDT)
It's not semi-public, whatever some websites would like to believe :P There's lots of non-finalized stuff in the alpha atm, so any information from it cannot be truly trusted. Nevertheless, it is pretty much certain that they'll have a rep bar, yeah :) -- Kirkburn (talk) 04:53, 5 October 2006 (EDT)
Even if they couldnt gain rep, they would still have a rep bar..they interact with them. there isnt a single group you interact with, aside fromt he opposing faction, that you dont have some sort of rep bar for, or they are part of a larger orginization--Haddon 18:29, 6 October 2006 (EDT)
I'm the one that added that information, just because it was curious thing them not having it. But they have bat handlers outside silvermoon and such, they obviously have good relations. I want to see it cleared up too. --Pigzig 22:29, 6 October 2006.
As far as I'm getting from my friends who are playing the Beta, they start out neutral with all Horde except the Forsaken, which they are friendly with, I suppose because of Sylvannas and whatnot. AzraelOpacus 00:47, 18 October 2006 (EDT)
Okay, the lowdown is that while the other races of the Horde distrust the Blood Elves for their reckless use of magic, the forsaken are impressed by it. I am thinking the forsaken are trying to dupe Blood Elves into sharing their powers, by becoming close to them, so that in the future they can use the knowledge and power for themselves. It is doubtful they would actually care about helping the Blood Elves.--Pigzig 19:21, 21 October 2006
You can gain UC rep now. It was just a rumor and Blizz forgot to add them into the rep bar.--Grid 11:10, 10 November 2006 (EST)
Forsaken start off with being friendly with the blood elves? why is this? --Jammidodger 10:41, 30 December 2006 (EST)
Forsaken and blood elves are closer to each other in philosophy and outlook than to the rest of Horde. Blood Elves start out friendly to Undercity but neutral to the others. --Varghedin 16:46, 30 December 2006 (CET)
There's two reasons in particular. Blood elves and Forsaken aren't exactly inviting each other for tea and throwing barbeques together, but they start off friendly because..
1. Location, location, location. They're the only two presences of Horde power in the Eastern Kingdoms.
2. Necessity. Lordaeron is west of the Plaguelands, and Quel'thalas is east of them. They must work together to scour the Scourge in between, and sending emissaries and funneling troops to both kingdoms from both races is a common practice.--Zexx 13:24, 30 December 2006 (EST)
I see, so its more for millitary reasons for the both of them. As you say, an alliance of necessity.--Jammidodger 16:31, 30 December 2006 (EST)
"Fel energies gave Blood Elves green eyes" a false rumor?
Now, theres been this whole "fel energies caused blood elves to develop green eyes" thing for a long time. I just discovered blood elves and high elves look the same now, right down to the eyes, so doesn't that debunk it? Some Night Elves even had green eyes in Warcraft III, and until World of Warcraft their eyes didn't even glow either. I think this green eye thing was just invented as an explanation for their new models. What do you guys know about it? --Pigzig 22:29, 6 October 2006.
Most of the official night elf art I've seen shows them with glowing eyes. High elves, however, SHOULDN'T have glowing eyes unless they are heavy magic users (why all their eyes glow in BC is because Blizz doesn't care). Fel magic is a lot more corrupting, and it seems to affect its users a lot quicker. Sure, Blizz hasn't come out and said flat-out "Fel magic gave blood elves green eyes," but we've seen demonic influence on races before, and eye color is usually one of the things that change. --Kakwakas 23:17, 13 October 2006 (EDT)
High Elves don't have glowing green eyes. They have glowing blue eyes, check the WoW model viewer and select "Use NPC Skins" under "options" when you have a blood elf PC model selected. You're either seeing the eyes wrong, they changed the NPC models to have green eyes, or it's a blood elf model with pale skin, and not a high elf model. Omacron 22:31, 15 October 2006 (EDT)
I just want to point out that in the end, canon "on the ground" data trumps lore predictions 100% of the time, even when canon information is contradictory to other canon information. If the High Elf models have glowing eyes, then that is how they are. It isn't a function of Blizzard being lazy, it simply is what it is. Made up lore must conform to the game as implemented. I'm not saying they are or aren't because I'm not in the beta and don't know. Piroko
I'm not disputing that high elves have glowing eyes- they do. But they don't glow green, they glow blue. It has nothing to do with me saying "that's how lore is", that's HOW THE MODELS ARE! It's just the high/blood elf in the picture has green eyes, which only blood elf models should have, and thus, I do not think it is an actual high elf. Omacron 19:03, 16 October 2006 (EDT)
Oh wait I didn't even notice that the original comment there was that they're the same color, too. High elves shouldn't even have glowing eyes to begin with, but even the glow in BC isn't green. You're right, the glow IS blue, but their eye color is green, so their eyes look more green than blue. Maybe when Blizz makes a seperate skin/model for high elves and can change the eye color, the glow will get the boot, too. --Kakwakas 00:49, 17 October 2006 (EDT)
Well, if you would read on what I put on talk:High_elf, you can see that the high elves DID have glowing blue eyes in warcraft games prior- look at the High Elven priests from WCIII.
Yes, but dragonhawk riders, high elven swordsmen, high elven archers, WC2 elves, etc didn't. What gave high elven priests glowing blue eyes? Hmmm.It would seem Holy magic gives glowing eyes sometimes, too. --Kakwakas 01:43, 18 October 2006 (EDT)
Dance, magic, dance! Omacron 16:43, 18 October 2006 (EDT)
Anyway, not all Night Elves had glowing yellow eyes either, it's really just a stylistic change for WoW I guess. Though I do like that at least all elves have glowing eyes, gives 'em something more than just being pointy eared humans, and I do kinda like them.
I think the last patch may have changed some things. I believe that the mage trainer in Stormwind hadn't been updated when I first checked her, but now she has. As for high elves' eyes, they range from a brilliant blue to a soft glow, but nothing like the glow from blood elves' and night elves' eyes. Arator's eyes glow green, which I've reported as a bug.--Aeleas 21:00, 23 October 2006 (EDT)
That was me again. I made the 'fel energy gives blood elves green eyes' change. It's a straight parallel between orcs with burning red eyes, which is an immediately proven trait that the orc is still infused with fel blood. The condition manifests itself differently in different species. Draenei have a similar trait, for example. The difference is with the playable BC blood elves their eyes don't burn as brightly because they aren't completely gorged by it.--Grid 10:55, 10 November 2006 (EST)
Some Douchebag editing and "hacking" the page.
Dude,
theres a asshole editing and hacking the page . His user name is Ghhf.
Can someone PLEASE ban this guy ? --Pulyx
WoWWiki:Known vandals --Tinkerer 11:20, 20 October 2006 (EDT)
Damn it, he deleted the WHOLE page. Does this site block by IP so he won't make another account and start doing it again ? --Pulyx
Unfortunately, this is how wikis work - plus he could get another IP if he really wanted anyway. He's banned, in any case :) -- Kirkburn (talk) 13:13, 20 October 2006 (EDT)
Is it possible to revert to a more recent version? - Vikingkingq
Evil Never Looked So Sexy
Who the heck put that caption? It's pretty dorky sounding.
Blizzard, I believe.. --Tinkerer 12:35, 20 October 2006 (EDT)
I think its dumb too. Lets change it. --Pigzig 01:00, 24 October 2006
The denial is as thick as.. as... jelly brains.User:Montag/sig 21:43, 1 November 2006 (EST)
Yup. First of all, it's not sexy, it's a bunch of pixels. And even then, Blood Elves are not evil, they're just magic-junkies. Remove this already.--K) (talk) 01:41, 20 November 2006 (EST)
The Blood Elves Motives
I have heard alot of that these Blood Elves are loyal Kael' Thus and that they always try to get themselves united. But, why would the Former High Elves who had killed many orcs and hated them for so long, want to join the Horde??? I have a theory. The History of the Orcs is that Kil' jeaden took over the Orcs by pouring Mogthedorians Blood into a well, or something like that. Over 1,000 years later, the Blood Elves swore loyalty to Illidan, thus swearing Loyalty to Kil' jeaden. So Kil' jeadan obvioussly wanted to keep an eye on his former subjects (not only Orcs but the Forsaken that were formerly Scourge that he created) by uniting some Elves that had no idea that they joined the Burning Crusade. So obviously some high ranking Blood Elf must know of Kil' jeadans plan. Who believes it?
Hmm, sounds like a good theory, but I'm pretty sure that's not why; it has already been explained why the blood elves joined. And it's not that much of a stretch; in warcraft iii, at the end, the humans, aided by high elves, joined forces with the horde and night elves. The blood elves know that the orcs they have allied with have changed greatly since the second war, losing the bloodthirst that Mannoroth's blood gave them. PS This would go in the analysis section, I believe. --Blackmorsel
Vandalism
It's not fun to come back to an article and find it's been destroyed by vandalism. If it occurs, revert it back to how it was before using the history tab! Don't attempt to 'fix' it by editing what was changed, as this can just cause futher problems when I try to find out what was lost and whether it's still on the page :/ The last bit of vandalism completely messed up the page ... Thanks! :) -- Kirkburn (talk) 15:21, 21 October 2006 (EDT)
Extra margins?
Is there a compelling reason for the 3% left margin at the beginning of each section? User:Montag/sig 16:01, 27 October 2006 (EDT)
It seems out of place, considering that no other articles have this margin. I took a look at the article without the margin and it doesn't seem to add or reduce readability all that much, but that's just my opinion. If it's generally agreed that it needs it, definitely keep it, but I haven't seen any discussion on the issue. If not, I'd say chuck it, to keep it more standard. User:Montag/sig 17:10, 27 October 2006 (EDT)
It's generally added to articles which are long and have many many sections. I personally would add it to more articles if I had the time. -- Kirkburn (talk) 17:43, 27 October 2006 (EDT)
I dunno. Somehow it looks ugly to me, kind of like a tacked-on way of making blocks of text more readable where you could probably just cut down on the wording or fragment the paragraphs a bit. But that's me. If it's general policy, should we create a category for increasing readability of larger articles? More people could probably participate then. User:Montag/sig 17:50, 27 October 2006 (EDT)
I think a manual of style would greatly help the wiki by improving consistency in article formatting, and allowing issues like this to be discussed and resolved on way or another. I've put some initial adaptations of Wikipedia's Manual of Style at User:Aeleas/Manual_of_Style; I'll work on it some more and then possibly propose it for discussion as a guideline.--Aeleas 01:58, 28 October 2006 (EDT)
Languages
Beta Tester here - Not sure who wrote in the Sindassi language, but my in game beta client shows the languages for my Blood Elf are Thalassian and Orcish. ~~ Silvermist
Someone edited it back out. Can someone care to elaborate? ~~ Silvermist
Edited it back. Confirmed from another beta tester that they speak Thalassian. This may mean updates of Sindassi and Thalassian are required. -- Kirkburn (talk) 11:48, 2 November 2006 (EST)
Confirmed here also regardless of beta fyi --Gryphon 19:17, 2 November 2006 (EST)
They've all be changed back again. Not by me. ~~ Silvermist
We believe you, we do! :) Ooh, I can't wait to get started playing the beta ... -- Kirkburn (talk) 21:39, 2 November 2006 (EST)
Sorry, I requested them, just to be on the safe side. Sindassi should still be mentioned, just to clarify. --Ragestorm 21:48, 2 November 2006 (EST)
Certainly. It's been assumed for so long, it would be silly to remove it straight away. -- Kirkburn (talk) 08:31, 3 November 2006 (EST)
Blood elf size
Sonjaaa added a section saying the Blood elf males were bulked up for the fans. This is not true, and Blizzard have specifically said the opposite. It was to bring them more in line with the concept art. -- Kirkburn (talk) 16:24, 3 November 2006 (EST)
I think this is debateable. Several beta forum posters on the EU beta website made several posts arguing that the Blood Elves were "too gay" - notably not referring to their size, but focusing rather on their emotes, jump spin, and their loot animation (which apparently resembled preparation for anal sex). Not long after, Nethaerea explains the change as the Blood Elves being changed to appear more masculine. I think adding two and two together here makes sense, especially since the concept art is hardly conclusive either way. Vikingkingq
Stereotyping ftl. No, it does not deserve a place in the article, especially with that kind of reasoning. -- Kirkburn (talk) 10:11, 4 November 2006 (EST)
Personally the whole thing makes me mad. I mean all the other races have males that are way too buff and unnatural looking... can't we have one race of slimmer males?
Well we have blue stubs from Nethaera explaining that they were bulked up with the intention that they look more threatening, which they do now. That is how they came across in the concept art, and that is how they come across here. The lore reasoning could be (And again, I'm making this up with an educated guess) that the fel energies they feed upon would have a similar physical effect on them as they did the orcs.. Which is making them more physically robust.
To be honest the change is so minor people would not have noticed if they didn't announce anything. I think the reasons mostly lie, as this game should rely on, for gameplay reasons. It's much easier to model the blood elves now that they expanded some parts of their anatomy. There were reports before that their skeletal frames were breaking up and 'poking' out of the body. These complaints are now gone.
Although, I am disappointed they didn't go with the original concept art of making blood elves appear much more Middle Eastern-based.--Grid 11:19, 10 November 2006 (EST)
I completely agree with people who say that the bulked up Blood Elves are 'too gay'. as people have said before, quite a few of the races are far too buff and look strange. And it would be nice for the Horde to have a race that isn't butt ugly. --Jammidodger 10:37, 30 December 2006 (EST)
Beta Testers: Screenshots of hair/face styles wanted
I'd love to see an image file included in this article that had the various blood elf hair styles and facial features available at the character creation screen. A beta tester with some time and image editing software would be best for this job. The best way to do this would probably be to get a bunch of screenshots of male and female blood elves at the character creation screen, use GIMP or some other editing software to crop out the heads, place them in a grid pattern and post it to the site. You certainly wouldn't have to include every possible combination, but I think getting the gist of the available options for hair styles, colors, and facial features would be great for people who can't cycle through it themselves. User:Montag/sig 19:41, 5 November 2006 (EST)
Image of Leaders/not sure how to format
Hey, I'm something of a techno-novice, but I found an image of all three Blood Elf racial leaders that someone in the beta had posted on WoW's forums. I'm not so sure that the Lor'themar and Halduron angles are usable, but someone who knows how to do such things could maybe crop Rommath for use in his character bio page (linked off of main Blood Elf page).
http://www.wowwiki.com/Image:Leaders.jpgVikingkingq
Done, as you asked. :) --Sul'jin 19:56, 27 December 2006 (EST)
Common controversy
The article states that there is no evidence that "blood elves" would ahve even known common. This is in fact wrong because the RPG states specifically that blood elves know Thalassian and Common as their main two languages. So the lack of common in the game is more of a gameplay mechanic than anything. Sure its possible that Blood Elves languages could be retconned in the upcoming Hord, or Dark Factions sourcebook but there is nothing to know that for sure. That being said some form of Common(common, undercommon, low-common) is a language known by most races in Azeroth, not just in the alliance but also in the Horde. This is likely often the case because its kind of a universal trade language, spread by goblins and what not. Its also used to explain why it seemed as if every character in previous warcraft games, and novels are able to understand each other with a single language even though they may not have anything in common with each other or no previous encounters with those races.Baggins 13:59, 9 November 2006 (EST)
Second that. High elves were once part of the Alliance and therefore knew common in order to communicate with humans and dwarves (as the Alliance did not include gnomes or night elves until WoW). Since blood elves are simply renamed high elves, there's no lore reason for them not to know common, only a game reason. User:Montag/sig 16:45, 9 November 2006 (EST)
Slight note to Montag, actually Gnomes were part of the alliance since Warcraft II(they were the ones building the technology for alliance in that game), they were just too busy with take over with Gnomeregan in order to send support in the third war.Baggins 12:57, 24 November 2006 (EST)
Could someone who has a lot of forum experience please tell me how much of an issue this is? I find it a little hard to believe that so many people are complaining about this to call it a controversy. --Ragestorm 17:06, 9 November 2006 (EST)
Agreed, I'm not sure of how a big a controversy it really is. I've only seen it brought up occasionally in random WOW forums, but I don't recall it becoming a big debate.Baggins 19:11, 9 November 2006 (EST)
There are many things in the WarCraft RPG books that are not considered canon in-game because of in-game evidence. i.e - Ratchet in the RPG book is a huge metropolitan resort, with a booming population, casinos, bars, shows, gaudy lights, etc. It's intended to be a mix of somewhere like Hong Kong and Las Vegas, with an emphasis on Vegas. Also, there is nothing in the WarCraft RPG books to discourage any race learning Common, because in reality.. I mean come on, really. If WoW were real is ANYTHING keeping an orc from becoming a mage, or a gnome from becoming a priest? No, nothing is. Same goes for language. These reasons exist because of gameplay, and the answer is, that is simply that. Our job is to try to find some reasoning to compromise a gameplay decision and smooth it along to be believable in the context of lore.
I wrote that stub, and I find it the most plausible explanation. In regards to it's place as a controversy, it was pretty big once the race was announced, and still pops up now and again. It was one of the main arguments used against the inclusion of blood elves into the Horde, because the idea that an entire race seemingly forgot a language overnight was inplausible.--Grid 11:23, 10 November 2006 (EST)
The size of the world in game is limited due to technical issues in that a computer could not handle scale of a real sized world. So nothing about geography in the game can be considered canon as far as scale is concerned. That is the world in game is only a few miles across, and can be crossed in a short period of time, only a few minutes when previous novels, games, and RPG claim it would take weeks to cross... Not to mention if you counted in game population based in NPCs living in houses, well WOW's population is severely unrealistic(not to mention missing characters brought up in other sources). However according to Metzen, Warcraft Canon is combination of the games, spin off literature and the rpg, and is not limited to just one source of information. Just because you don't see somethin in the game doesn't mean it isn't canon, its just a limitation in what the game can portray. Another way of explaining it is the game isn't trying be an accurate portrayal of the world, but is more of interpretive portrayal of the world. That being said instances dungeons, and battlegrounds are often as large as the zones you enter them from. So its possible that dungeons and instance dungeons are to a normal scale, even though the overworld they link from isn't. Baggins 19:41, 10 November 2006 (EST)
Then by that note in the WarCraft RPG book, we are to say that all Forsaken know how to speak Common. So suddenly did they magically lose this ability when applied to the actual gameplay of WoW? It wasn't even reconciled as Underwater Breathing was in the game.
It's still my opinion the information about blood elf languages in the WarCraft: RPG Book was created for the sole purpose of the table top game only, and is not part of the greater canon.--Grid 03:49, 15 November 2006 (EST)
According to lore they did not lose knowledge of common, they just choose to speak Gutterspeak instead because of pride of the language. That is blizzard's official explanation now. As for why you can't use common in the game? Its a gameplay mechanic, to prevent people from trash talking the other side. Blizzard has said that the RPG is part of the greater canon, on the official site, and in the books themselves. The lore is written with the help of designers of the quest lore in the games, and Metzen is in charge of it all.Baggins 22:05, 22 November 2006 (EST)
In Warcraft III it was basically established that anyone could talk to anyone else whenever the story requires even if their races have never met before and exist on different continents(and sometimes planets). Language barriers just aren't taken very seriously in the Warcraft storyline. --Kinst 22:26, 22 November 2006 (EST)
Ya in warcraft 3 everyone was able to communicate with each other via common, or low-common, or a kind of mixture of common interspersed with random racial sayings. Language barriers in WoW are there for only one reason and that's to keep players from verbally assaulting each other.Baggins 22:34, 22 November 2006 (EST)
If you're upset about this language thing, blame the immature players, not the lore department.--Ragestorm 23:06, 22 November 2006 (EST)
Agrees with Ragestorm.Baggins 23:18, 22 November 2006 (EST)
Language barriers weren't put in because of immature players. It seems like a tempting explanation because alot of asshat behavior was going on before it was implemented, but no game mechanic can stem their tide. They were placed to put disfavor upon factions working together - i.e, getting them to kill that guy who dicked you over at the AH, doing quests together, etc. It didn't stop certain insidious acts of collaboration, however. On my server there were two top PvP teams who would throw matches with each other to gain optimal honor from each other with 2-3 min Warsong Gulch games. This was sent to a grinding halt when Blizzard wisely implemented the cross-server PvP system, which made cheating like this much more difficult to organize.
It would just be incredibly dumb in PvP servers. Red is dead TBH. And if that's the current language lore, I'll accept it, but I still find it fishy.
--Grid 12:13, 24 November 2006 (EST)*
Actually I'm not argueing that isn't more reasons as why they removed the ability learn languages, or have ability for cross horde/alliance communications, but blizzard's blues have only stated one specific reason in their posts;
So I will simply reiterate what others have said -- there was some limited functionality for this in Beta with the Undead, but it was removed due to the sheer amount of vitriol and bile that was spewed both ways. It caused a large number of harassment complaints.-Caydiem[2]
There maybe are more reasons, but blizzard has never admitted to others from what I've seen, though if you know of other posts where they discuss it be sure to bring them up on appropriate articles so we can have the most complete information according to the designers.Baggins 12:53, 24 November 2006 (EST)
Evil?
What is the meaning of the text beneath one of the Blood Elven pictures:
"Evil has never looked so sexy" ? ´Who's evil?
I think it's the official caption, so named because the Blood elves are just over than thin, winding line between good and evil. --Ragestorm 18:57, 9 November 2006 (EST)
I think you could make a good case for them being the most evil playable characters thus far, depending on your definition of evil. User:Montag/sig 19:16, 10 November 2006 (EST)
How about "downright bastards" :P -- Kirkburn (talk) 21:08, 10 November 2006 (EST)
Downright bastards.. or Tragic Heroes? User:Montag/sig 22:38, 10 November 2006 (EST)
Try "all of the above", although I quibble with the word "tragic." One question: in whose book (apart from the sindorei) does leeching holy engergy from an angelic being not count as evil?--Ragestorm 00:46, 11 November 2006 (EST)
Victims of circumstance might be a better term. But, having said that, I want them to be evil. User:Montag/sig 06:43, 11 November 2006 (EST)
How about "evil, pending redemption?"--Ragestorm 09:36, 11 November 2006 (EST)
I think I'll stick with "victims of circumstance," because they got dealt the short end of more than one stick and were beaten with a couple. User:Montag/sig 13:40, 11 November 2006 (EST)
I don't get it. It's kinda natural being confused about this, since the Blood Elves in Warcraft III was everything except "evil".
Kael, for instance, was a great hero, that saved his people from extinction, helped saving the Broken Draenei from Fel Orcs, aswell as aiding Illidan in liberting Outland from the cruel Magtheridon. Not to mention his effort in their try to destroy the Lich King.
And now he will be a raidable boss, even for his own people, that he saved? Without Kael, they would never been able to retake Quel'Thalas!
So, back to topic: what has happened between Warcraft III and WoW that has made these elves evil? --Odolwa 23:20, 24 November 2006 (EST)
Umm... they did retake Quel'Thalas without Kael. ANd what happened in between was probably that Vashj and Illidan succeeded in poisoning Kael's mind significantly.--Ragestorm 20:07, 24 November 2006 (EST)
Wrong, it was first when Rommath arrived from Outland, teaching the Blood Elves there about Kael's new way of taping new sources of energies that they became strong enough to retake the land from the Scourge. Not to mention that the Outland-Blood Elves also sent the Naaru to them, enabling them to become Paladins (which is an invaluable weapon against the Scourge).
Conclusion: the Blood Elves would be nothing without Kael'thas Sunstrider. --Odolwa 12:41, 25 November 2006 (EST)
Resorting to demonic magic will do that to you, no matter how pure you were. Not to mention they'd be understandably jaded for being screwed over so much. In a similar way that the Forsaken are not "evil" per se, they are definately not gregarious people. What can pass as even the purest Forsaken priest still has darkness lurking in his heart from the being a victim of the Plague.
And I think according to the Sunwell Saga the blood elves reclaimed Quel'Thalas mostly without the help of Rommath. Much of the Scourge already left to push the attack on Lordaeron, since Arthas only came there for the Sunwell and had no interest actually occupying Quel'Thalas. When the blood elves were first announced and Silvermoon City was introduced there was a story stub that mentioned that the Scourge curiously left nearly the entire city intact, save for the Dead Scar, which they created to go straight for the Sunwell.--Grid 14:51, 25 November 2006 (EST)
"Rommath remained in Quel'Thalas to help rebuild and await the prince's return. Thanks to Rommath, the blood elves on Azeroth learned how to drain arcane magic and feed their addiction. As they returned to health, they praised their absent prince and dedicated themselves to learning more. Rommath and the new order of elven magi made great progress in tutoring their brethren to manipulate arcane energies. Soon the spires of Silvermoon City rose skyward once again, powered by volatile magics. The blood elves have even begun retaking portions of Eversong Woods. Emboldened by the promise of Kael'thas' return, the prince's weary people now focus on regaining their strength and forging a new path into an uncertain future."
It sure sounds to me like the techings of Kael'thas and Illidan was the mayor factor in re-taking Quel'thalas and rebuilding Silvermoon.--Odolwa 23:56, 8 December 2006 (EST)
Notes about Blizzard's tendency to reference pop culture and other sources are welcome additions to articles. If you're going to edit them, please be constructive. User:Montag/sig 03:21, 20 November 2006 (EST)
Strange old blood elf models are still used in occasional spots in patch test realm
Oddly enough there are blood elves and high-elves that aren't replaced by the new model and still use the old ones in random spots around the world. Don't know if this will be fixed later, or if they did this to add variety for blood elf/high elf forms.Baggins 03:20, 23 November 2006 (EST)
Well, still a few places that still have the old model.Baggins 18:04, 8 December 2006 (EST)
Blood Elf Demonhunters?
There are a number of Blood Elf Demonhunters residing inside the black temple. Whether this class is to be included in the job list, it is not sure (but probably it is safe to assume that it is not.)
Blood Elf demon hunters were mentioned in Alliance Player's Guide as well, :).Baggins 18:01, 8 December 2006 (EST)
Change to racials
Someone change the Arcane Torrent racial. It triggers the Global Cooldown.--Grid 19:55, 30 November 2006 (EST)
Controversy
Seeing how long the section is on controversy alone would it be a good idea to create a seperate article Blood elf controversy, and then have this page link to it? We could do a similar thing with the Draenei controversy too.Baggins 18:52, 4 December 2006 (EST)
::Cheer.:: Thank God. That section was incredibly ugly. User:Montag/sig 01:20, 9 December 2006 (EST)
Well I'm glad I made some people happy this week :p.(Baggins wimpers and crawls back into the doghouse)Baggins 01:40, 9 December 2006 (EST)
Who are the playable Blood Elves?
I'm a bit curious about who the Quel'thalas Blood Elves actually are. I have heard an explaination of the mayority of us playable Blood Elves being part of former Kael'thas army that was sent back (along with Rommath) to Azeroth with the purpose of helping the Blood Elves left in Quel'thalas with the re-taking. This makes real sense at least.
Another theory is that it was only Rommath that was sent back to Quel'thalas, although this sounds a bit strange. Considering almost every Blood Elves followed through the Dalaran-portal with Kael, it would only leave a teeny-weeny minority left in Quel'thalas. Those wouldn't be enough to make up a playable race.
So, is the playable Blood Elves a mix of former Kael'thas army, aswell as Blood Elves that never left Quel'thalas?--Odolwa 18:35, 15 December 2006 (EST)
Technically, I suppose they could be a mix. Personally, I think it's more likely that only Rommath and a few others returned, and that the playable elves are the ones who remained the whole time. I find the whole "90% eradicated" figure a bit inflated.--Ragestorm 13:02, 15 December 2006 (EST)
Elves are a very long lived race, so it isn't too unbelievable to assume the 90% wipe out, especially humans also numbered in the millions and now fraction of them are remaining. 10% of several million is still considerable. I'm under the impression that the blood elves that Maiev and Tyrande encountered with Kael'thas were a strike force accompanying Kael'thas while the majority of the blood elven military was still busy reclaiming Quel'thalas. Speaking strictly though it is impossible that any blood elf we can play as is a blood elf who followed Kael into Outland, since all of us of every race start off as fresh initiates who just signed up for the war effort.--Grid 16:10, 15 December 2006 (EST)
My point about the numbers is that the death toll seems abnormally high for any war, even one against the likes of the Scourge and the Burning Legion. For Lordaeron, they make sense, as they were forced to contend with the Scourge and then the Legion, and then the Scourge again, but Quel'Thalas? The same thing goes for the 80% figure for the Draenei.
Anyway, back to elves, it seems like most of the playable ones would be those who remained in Quel'Thalas the whole time. A note about Kael's faction is that Dalaran, as the most important magical center on Azeroth, would have been populated by large numbers of high elf and gnomish mages in addition to humans, so Kael's servitors could just be most of all elves living in Lordaeron and Dalaran at the time of Arthas's invasion, and would not be included in the surviving ten percent. --Ragestorm 16:52, 15 December 2006 (EST)
The strangest think regarding playable Blood Elves is: how they can be Sha'tar friendly, or Narru friendly in general, if they imprison and torture a Naaru in Silvermoon city for the mere purpose of draining power? Regarding Blood Knight they even take directly from the imprisoned Naaru!!! --N'Nanz 19,24, 16 December 2006 (Rome)
Horde?
I have some serioulsy questions about the inclusion of the blood elves in the Horde. First of all, it is well know that the blood elves were shunned from the Alliance by their practice of demon magic. Well, if that is correct, then the Alliance should also shun the Humans and the Gnomes, they also use demon magics! Ok, they were shunned by the Allied for warlock magic... if that were true, the Horde should also shun them... the horde doesn't accept warlock magic!
Other point: The only Alliance faction who know about the orc's cultural changes are the Theramoore's humans, high elves and dwarves. Kul Tiras, Stormwind, Stromguarde, Dalaran, Gilneas, Lordaeron's survivors, Khaz Modan's dwarves and Quel'Thalas elves did not followed Jaina in the Battle of Mount Hyjal, thus they theorically does not know about the New Horde. And the Quel'Thalas elves are now the playable Blood Elves. It would be unrealystic if the blood elves could forget the years of war with the Orcs (in the Second War). They should not care if the Horde is now shamanist; the orcs are invasors and should die (as Daelin Proudmoore thought).
Well, they may join the Horde through the Forsaken, which are dead high elves, but these undeads also should not be part of the Horde; I read somewhere that Sylvannas' parents were killed by orcs... would she forget all that? Would she forget the war with the orcs?
And even so, I don't see a reason for the Horde to accept the blood elves... with the undead and elves, the Horde get two races who are certainly to betray them in the future. Who agrees? --Gollum 10:29, 24 December 2006 (EST)
Of course the Eastern Kingdoms-people know about the New Horde! They aren't completely isolated, you know. Thrall isn't exactly a stranger around the world.
Also, the Undead Forsaken consists mainly of dead Humans. The undead High Elves are only the ghosts and banchees.--Odolwa 16:41, 24 December 2006 (EST)
Check the controversy stub, please.--Grid 10:57, 24 December 2006 (EST)
Even in the highly unlikely event that Jaina didn't tell her allies about Thrall's reformation, it would be impossible for the Night elves not to mention it at some Alliance council meeting. Also, the Forsaken and Blood elves are much more rounded than Marketing lets us think- the Blood Elves aren't mindlessly draining everything to feed their addiction, they are practicing some restraint (this is what sets them apart from Kael's blood elves).--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 11:29, 24 December 2006 (EST)
Well you haven't read the lore tidbits about warlocks in the alliance in the game? If you remember the old description when you first choose the class in the game. They pretty much state that their existence is fairly underground, and usually you find their trainers in the darkest areas, inside of basements, in alley's etc. See Hidden Knowledge for a better idea on this fact. Though they are becoming a fairly common problem, so Alliance is starting to take notice according to the Alliance Player's Guide.
If you didn't know its mainly the humans, high elves, night elves and now the draenei that are the members who are usually behind anti warlock/necromancers rule. They are the ones that try to get rid of them as they learn about them.
Now the fact you see so many in WoW and they can get into parties with their greatest foes, night elfs and paladins, and priests. That is merely a gameplay contrivance. Even the character selection screen in current patch says that Alliance loath all things demonic.Baggins 11:33, 24 December 2006 (EST)
Should we say "children of the Blood" to bring it in line with the Night elf infobox? While it works, it sound a bit repetitive to say "blood" twice. Perhaps "survivors of Quel'thalas" or something different, but happen to feel that "blood elves, children of the blood" doesn't flow very well. --Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 20:33, 25 December 2006 (EST)
Am I right in saying it's 'Children of the Bloodline' rather than just 'blood'? I'll have to find the source... --Vorbis 11:47, 26 December 2006 (GMT)
No, it's children of the blood, according to the Thalassian primer. And that doesn't flow much better.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 09:12, 26 December 2006 (EST)
It may sound a bit awkward, but I think it flows better and has more poetry to it than saying "Sin'dorei" which would basically be like saying "Blood elves, the blood elves". The advantage is that it will link them with night elves, but I am open to other suggestions. What about "Blood elves, Risen from the Ashes?"--Zexx 12:07, 26 December 2006 (EST)
That works. "Bloodline", though is simply a completely false translation.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 12:38, 26 December 2006 (EST)
Changed it to "in Honor of the Perished". Sounds much more accurate.--Zexx 17:12, 27 December 2006 (EST)
Sounds odd, what is in honor to the perished? The change of name? It's not very accurate. I would prefer the original line, where "Blood Elves" were translated into Thalassian, simular to "Night Elves" being translated into Darnassian. That would link the two races together in a good way.--Odolwa 23:22, 27 December 2006 (EST)
It should be a rough translation of Sin'dorei, should it not? -- Kirkburn (talk) 17:26, 27 December 2006 (EST)
We decided "Blood elf, the Children of the Blood" doesn't have the nice kind of flow the night elf info box does. I suggested at first that it be changed to Children of the Blood but I saw what Ragestorm meant. It links them, but it doesn't really do anything to make them sound cool.
And Odolwa to your first question, blood elves renamed themselves blood elves in honor of their dead. Also I definately think taurens need a new hook, and Darkspears and Forsaken should be given ones in the first place.--Zexx 17:30, 27 December 2006 (EST)
Yes I know, just thought it sounded a bit unspecific in that situation.
And I agree, Troll and Undead need a much better line.--Odolwa 01:01, 28 December 2006 (EST)
I added lines for Trolls and the Forsaken. Feel free to critique and change. For blood elves, "In Honor of the Perished" is accurate but not the same pattern as the other lines. "Children of blood" and "risen from the ashes" is a bit vague. "Survivors of Quel'Thalas" sounds nice, but "remnant of Quel'Thalas" might be better. User:Montag/sig 03:16, 28 December 2006 (EST)
Not bad at all. For forsaken, I'd favor something like "champions of the Banshee Queen" or something more... undead. Still, this works quite well.--Ragestorm, Head Bookkeeper 11:25, 28 December 2006 (EST)
I like the Undead-line, but "islanders of the Darkspear tribe" doesn't fit very good for Trolls, considering all of them nowadays living on the mainland of Kalimdor.--Odolwa 17:30, 28 December 2006 (EST)
I'm going to adjust the tauren and Forsaken ones. The Forsaken need a line that doesn't describe them as undead, but Forsaken -- most importantly the fact that they are free of the Lich King, of course. The tauren one feels too similar to night elves. As for the troll one, I'm still trying to think of something clever.--Zexx 14:07, 29 December 2006 (EST)
There are some good alternate descriptions for the Forsaken in the RPG as well, Gutterspeak for example goes into a little of how they view themselves, the "outcasts", "abandoned by everyone", etc. I'd have to go back to the book to list a few more discriptions given.Baggins 14:42, 29 December 2006 (EST)
Why even have these Azeroth blood elves?
I am confused as to why we have these Azeroth blood elves. Their intentions don't seem that bad in comparison to those of the blood elves in Outland. Apart from using a bit of demonic magic, the Azeroth blood elves actually seem to have pretty much the same values as the Alliance high elves. It's sort of weird how we have these blood elves who are evil in Outland, we have the good high elves true to the Alliance, and these Azeroth blood elves which are sort of in the middle. I think that the playable race should have been one or the other (alliance high elf or outland evil blood elf), not this weird happy medium between the two. -Jenalla
Why? Read the lore. Anyway, many people are not happy about the choice made by the Blizzard (I still think that the Alliance should get the ugly Draenei (like the Broken Ones), and should never make the Draenei the way they look in BC, and thus not connecting them to the Eredar race, leaving them just as ancient inhabitants of Draenor (the land which is named after them - how the heck did Draenor got the name after Draenei, and not Orcs, if the Draenei were there AFTER the Orcs?), and blah blah blah... I know, I know, they're nice, but still the original ones (from W3) or "Broken Ones" would suit much better). Still, we gotta take what we're given, I just hope that when the next expansion is out, we won't get anything like it. --Sul'jin 07:07, 4 January 2007 (EST)
Basically, tensions arose between the newly formed blood elves and the Alliance when the working relationship between Lord Garithos and Prince Kael'thas went sour over receiving aid from naga against the Scourge. In the end, the Alliance declared the blood elves traitor, set to execute Kael'thas who was subsequently rescued by Lady Vashj. Kael'thas and Vashj fled to Outland with Illidan, but the trust between the Alliance and the blood elves left in Outland had forever been broken. Combine this with the rising nation of the Forsaken, which are led by the former high elf Sylvanas, and allying with the new Horde starts to looking much more attractive. --Varghedin (talk · contr) 09:04, 4 January 2007 (EST)
And one major problem with having playable high elves is that they're (almost) all dead. User:Montag/sig 09:34, 4 January 2007 (EST)
Agreed. Besides, while it's a weird medium, it's not a happy one, and you'll find that it works alright lore-wise; the Azeroth blood elves still have a few high elven ideals which make them fit into the Horde, while their Outland cousins have adopted Illidan's dogma in relation to magic, which wold not fit with the Horde. And like Montag says, most of the high elves are dead.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 11:19, 4 January 2007 (EST)
Indeed High Elves would never work as a playable race. They are too few, havn't got their own homeland, and even as we speak, the process of High Elves converting into Blood Elves occur. I wouldn't blame them for leaving the Alliance. I would miss my homeland and former brethren a lot if I were a High Elf.--Odolwa 17:25, 4 January 2007 (EST)1
Actually they could, except for one thing. Too few? Well there are still enough to make up a playable race (look a the darkspears, they all came from that teeny island where they were being attacked by Murlocs. I mean sure, they are scattered, but if they organised themselves better, they would be a force to reckon with (they have large numbers in Theramore, the lodges, and now Allerian Hold) They haven't got their own homeland? That's easily solved. The Orcs didn't at the start of Warcraft 3. Besides, supposedly the Theramore alliance elves are looking for a new place to settle in Kalimdor. No, those aren't actually the real reasons. It's because they are the same species as blood elves, and blizzard wouldn't want to make two races using the same model. I think it would be better if there were more factions than alliance and horde, and within some factions we could play as a race that is the same species as a race in another faction, but slightly different. (example, an evil Illidan faction that would include blood elves and fel orcs, while the alliance would have high elves and the Horde would have regular orcs.) --Jenalla
To use a real-world example of your homeland suggestion, look at people of Jewish descent. Did everyone of Jewish ancestry go flocking to Israel when it was founded? Of course not, many had lives of their own in countries around the world. Same with the high elves- those that live in Stormwind or Theramore are at home there.
There are also more Darkspears around than you suggest.
Finally, WoW is about marketing to those who don't really care about lore, and marketing advised Blizzard that a PvP dichotomy works better.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 12:15, 4 January 2007 (EST)
Ultimately the answer is this: They're cool.
Lore, for the most part, is always created to adapt around the sake of gameplay. We are, afterall, playing a game. The lore is just a nice bonus for the geeks in all of us to get into and play around with. Like the Forsaken the blood elves joining the Horde is an Alliance of convenience. Although I like your idea of different races swearing fealty to different political affiliations, it's just unrealistic at this point in WarCraft history. Maybe when the two factions have cooexisted long enough for there to be a breakdown of racial association with each political philosophy, and become more of a personal decision, it could work. Also it would be too confusing in PvP (Trust me it's why I play this game), and being part of a certain faction or face loses some "flavor", if you will.
There are still plenty of high elves if you put it in comparison with a race like the draenei, who are practically extinct. In the aftermath of the Orc-Draenei War (Historical rule of thumb -- when a war is named after the two nations that went to war together, the victor's race comes first) only a few dozen of them were left alive. In the end it becomes a matter of gameplay balance.
The Forsaken were initially heavily distrusted, and even though the Royal Apothecary Society still schemes and tortures, it would appear the Horde has warmed up to see them as trusted allies. Atleast from Thrall's perspective chronicling Rise of the Horde.
My opinion is that in time, the Forsaken and blood elves will both learn from much wiser races who have experienced the same things they are experiencing before.
And that is all he wrote.--Zexx 14:56, 4 January 2007 (EST)
I agree. Besides, I imagine that once you start playing, things will become much clearer- I've met a number of people who were violently opposed to the draenei and blood elves, but after they started beta testings, all they've been able to talk to me about is how much the races work! Once one of the most vehement, my best friend's new favorite race is draenei!
Often, all this whining is for nothing.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:51, 4 January 2007 (EST)
Infobox/Banner placement
I find with both Firefox 2 and IE7, placing the BC banner template after the infobox causes display problems in the article. In Firefox, the text of the banner is placed beside the infobox, with the text about 2-3 words wide running the length of the box. In IE7, the banner gets bumped to after the infobox, leaving the left side of the screen blank. In neither case does any of the lead section appear on the screen when the article is loaded. Both of the above are assuming a maximized browser with a bookmark pane open at 1024 by 768 resolution. The same occurs on Draenei.
If the banner is placed before, then both banners appear at the top of the article, and while they take up a fair amount of space, both the top of the infobox and the lead section are visible.[3]--Aeleas 18:17, 5 January 2007 (EST)
Ah, I see the problem in IE7, when the width is quite low. I'll take a look at the BC template later, see if I can reduce it a bit. It needs updating anyway, and a new icon might be a good idea. -- User:Kirkburn/Sig 18:28, 5 January 2007 (EST)
Sorry, I didn't take IE into account- it scanned fine in Safari and Netscape.--Ragestorm (talk · contr) 20:51, 5 January 2007 (EST)
I didn't notice until I made the screen really really teeny, anyway. I've reduced the template size now, should help! On a side note, we need to reduce the number of bc template uses, and it will need to stop categorising pages soon, the BC cat is far too large and unusable. -- User:Kirkburn/Sig 21:10, 5 January 2007 (EST)
September 2006: As per the recent race names vote at Wowpedia talk:Writing policy#Race name case, the correct race name spelling is "blood elf" and not "Blood Elf"
