- 1 Hunter Abilities Table discussion
- 2 Black text?
- 3 Pet Abilities
- 4 Outdated Abilities
- 5 Range of pet skills
- 6 Marksmanship talents
- 7 Casters?
- 8 Hefty Redesign
- 9 Black Arrow
- 10 Cleanup
- 11 Major Talent overhauls from Patch 4.0.1
Hunter Abilities Table discussion
About the abilties table, is it possible you could change it to match the layout of the other abilities tables? To reduce the rediculously large size of the information presented, we just used the rank 1 level and only listed skills/spells once.
I really like the work you've done, by the way. There's a lot here that you've taken care of. Snorelax 21:45, 28 Nov 2004 (EST)
I tried that approach at first but there are a ton of Hunter abililties and the primary table which would have occupied the Hunter Abilities page was roughly 2 - 2.5 screens (146 rows, or thereabouts) in length. Since Goldark asked that editors keep things short on initial pages and create linked pages for in-depth stuff, the way it is now was the best plan I could think of at the time, sorry it didn't fit the bill. When I began the Hunter Abilities tables, there really wasn't an example on the site to go by so I used the Rogue row templates as a jumping off point and customized them to be Hunter specific... ;)
As an aside, Goldark asked earlier if I could add a Rank column to the Hunter Abilities tables and I did try. There seems to be a problem with a 7 column table, however. I cannot seem to get it to work for me -- I tried many things and read everything I could find in the wiki.org help files on editing and/or creating and using templates in tables. Didn't find anything specific enough to help, unfortunately. If you or someone more knowledgeable with Wiki markup could look over my HunterAbililtyRowX templates and see why I can only add 6 columns, I would appreciate it. -- Arath 00:05, 29 Nov 2004 (EST)
Continuing the Hunter Abilities Table discussion...
There is a problem with the Hunter's Abilities table looking like the rest of the classes as suggested by Snorelax above.
It seems there are only a certain number of rows we can add at this point in the Wiki software's evolution. I cannot add all the first level abilities to the table due to this limitation. For the time being, I commented out the rows that will not render properly. If one chooses to edit the page, these rows can then be seen. That's how many rows that will get left out of the Hunter abilities table using this methodology (I don't know how many other classes will be short rows in their abilities tables).
The main thing that concerns me about making all the class abilities pages like this is that the visitor cannot see at a glance when they will acquire a given abiity due to the fact that only first level abilities are listed in the table. This effectively forces the individual to choose a particular ability and drill-down further just to see at what level the next rank is learned. Using this first level only methodology also leaves some level advancements off completely as they are Ranked higher than first level and therefore don't get shown on the initial table at all. So, for all intents and purposes, a totally uninformed visitor might think there was no ability skill-up for the level in question according to our documentation.
Can we not devise a methodology that will at least let the visitor know at what level they will acquire a given ability at first glance, so to speak, right there on the main abilities page? Certainly the more verbose descriptions and/or stategies and tactics of a given ability could be contained on a subsequent page(s). Are we simply regurgitating information that can be gained from any number of official and unofficial fan sites? If so, what's the whole point of the WoWWiki in the first place? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what it is WoWWiki is trying to do... ;)
Not that the way I originally chose to present Hunter Abilities information was any better than what Snorelax proposes, but I had originally tried to find the most intuitive and less-clicks-needed way of going about the above mentioned problem. Even though it wasn't the most attractive of layouts, it was very intuitive in that all the visitor had to do was click on the advancement level they were inquiring about to see both the level's available abilities and Rank upgrades.
Most of the WoWWiki's visitors will be searching for specific answers about their class' abilities and at what level and Rank these are acquired. They will use the WoWWiki site as a Warcraft encyclopedia, if you will. These visitors will want as much information on each drill-down into WoWWiki's database as possible. Is it not incumbent upon us as editors to make their visit as intuitive and easy to navigate as possible?
My take on the layout options
"It seems there are only a certain number of rows we can add at this point in the Wiki software's evolution. I cannot add all the first level abilities to the table due to this limitation."
Vlad (the admin) has increased the limit to 20 copies of a given template per page. Given the Row1/Row2 alteration that gives 40 rows. You can increase that by adding a duplicate template with a different name, e.g. just tack a "b" or a "c" on the end of each one would give 80 or 120 rows respectively.
"The visitor cannot see at a glance when they will acquire a given abiity due to the fact that only first level abilities are listed in the table"
Indeed, I think that's a problem, and its one benefit of the original layout. Conversely though, you can't then see what upgrades you'll gain at Level X (as you can with the Hunter Abilities, you can only see the new abilities you'll get. I think the former is more important than the latter - yes, we could create a cross-index but it'd double the maintenance work. I'm not sure its worth it, but if people wish to add it then that's fine.
"Can we not devise a methodology that will at least let the visitor know at what level they will acquire a given ability at first glance, so to speak, right there on the main abilities page?"
"Is it not incumbent upon us as editors to make their visit as intuitive and easy to navigate as possible?"
Nicely said and very true. But that's not an easy thing to address, particularly within the limitations of the Wiki.
Running off on a slight tangent, all of these data tables are exactly that - data tables, which are best suited to a database oriented system which can be sorted, searched, filtered and so forth. There's no point us trying to completely duplicate systems such as Thottbot, and if people wish that extra flexibility, then I've no problem in redirecting them in that direction. I expect the more experianced players to go there if they just want game-data. For new players, its great we can show them what abilities will become available, as if you are looking at choosing a class its nice to see at a glance what all the different cool things they can do as they level up. But once you've started that process, if you want to see what you'll get at level 20 you'll probably go to Thottbot or ign or something. So I don't think we want to go to OTT on this.
Well, enough from me for now! -- Goldark 13:48, 30 Nov 2004 (EST)
Abilities table discussion
Thank you for the response, Goldark.
<< You can increase that by adding a duplicate template with a different name, e.g. just tack a "b" or a "c" on the end of each one would give 80 or 120 rows respectively. >>
I hadn't thought about creating duplicate row templates, that's a great idea and thanks for bringing that up. I will get that done soonest. Any word on the ability to have more than 6 columns in a table row template? Is that also a limitation of the current Wiki implementation? Been all over the Wiki.org help pages looking for an answer to no avail.
Uhmmm, not really since they only show when the first rank of an ability is available. One still must drill-down to get to a Level/Rank listing that gives further information. Nevertheless, I will go with the format currently being used and quit asking all these Wiki-n00b questions... lol —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arath3246 (talk · contr).
Just a sideline comment: The tables are difficult to read... the rows with a black background have black text in them, and are therefore unreadable unless highlighted.. I would attempt to correct it, but it appears this is the standard accross the WoW Wiki form.. as in the hunters link above is done the same way as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lewzephyr (talk · contr).
Hmm, I see white text myself. Did you change your schema in the personal settings perhaps? I'm using Monobook myself. None of the pages support the other schemas at the moment, though its something I've been meaning to investigate to see how they work. Also, have you over-ridden the default font settings in anyway? Any further info you can give would be useful if that doesn't help.
Anyone else seeing black text on the black background that can add to this? -- Goldark 14:29, 30 Nov 2004 (EST)
You are correct Goldark, I was using a different schema.... when reverting back to the Monobook all looks very well displayed. Sorry for the incorrect assement. Lewzephyr
No worries and thanks for raising it Lewzephyr - certainly, support for different skins is something that needs to be considered, and hopefully it can get added in sooner rather than later. -- Goldark 15:18, 30 Nov 2004 (EST)
- I removed a column (level) from the table and now the Description column is not left aligned! Argh! Help fix please. --Dracomage 16:08, 7 Dec 2005 (EST)
Bite has 9 levels not 8, table needs to be corrected -Dragoon_Jett
Some of the abilities are outdated. Example Spirit bond does not reflect the current game description. Requires updating. --Dracomage 08:58, 13 Jan 2006 (EST)
Range of pet skills
The range of the abilities Gore and Fire Breath should be checked. Gore is probably 5 yards, I doubt it's the case for Fire Breath though. Malusz 17:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
OK. I am looking at changing the current Marksmanship section to match the Beastmastery and Survivalist sections.
Also need to keep adding icons for each talent.
- dont bother, we'll change the hunter section to look just like the Warrior talents pages. CJ 04:54, 17 March 2006 (EST)
- Try to follow my style which I use in the section about new talents added in patch 3.0.2 (or WotLK if you like it that way). -- 08:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I have redesigned a lot of the look of the tables to attempt to make it easier to find abilities and for it to look better. I cannot find the icon for Kill Shot though. Some help would be appreciated.
Black Arrow is in the game its a spec in survival my 52 hunter has it. Halowseve15
I am moving all the Key Talents here to preserve them, but I think they should be integrated into the In depth analysis page or a strategy page. The Key Talents section is very much up to interpretation and play style. This page should be used to list all Talents available and be a portal to strategy and talent builds, not all in one.
BM Key talents
If you are involved in end-game raiding, then this talent can significantly increase your damage output over lengthy combat durations as auto shots are always fired in all shot rotations. This is definitely the case in raid instances such as Black Temple and Sunwell Plateau, where high sustained DPS is crucial towards the success of a boss encounter. Note that in normal PvE, this talent is not quite as useful, but provides a solid DPS increase. It offers little or even no benefit for PvP as you must be able to fire successful auto shots consistently in order for this talent to proc and this is certaintly not possible if you get enemies within your deadzone constantly or getting crowd controlled.
The 15% boost to your pet's health can greatly boost your pet's survivability in both PvP and PvE; it can potentially help it endure an additional two or three damaging hits or ticks before dying.
Reduces the physical damage your pet takes in battle. Really pays off when you are faced with two or more opponents that deal heavy melee damage as it will help your pet take much less damage. This combined with Endurance Training can save you mana from having to heal your pet as often.
Increases your pet's damage which also pays off in increasing its ability to maintain aggro.
A must-have for any long term Hunter. The ability to remove a range of debuffs from your pet reduces your downtime and boosts your pet's survivability in fights where annoying DoTs are applied to everyone.
The added critical strike chance will greatly improve your pet's damage output which automatically means better threat generation and its ability to maintain aggro.
A great means of interrupting spell casters and also for biding you and your pet some time to recover or inflict damage without taking any yourself. This spell also works well if your pet needs to steal aggro away from you or from casters in your party as intimidation causes a high amount of threat. Finally, while this is a primarily PvE talent, the stun aspect can make a difference in PvP encounters.
Enables your pet to regenerate twice as much focus per tick, thus letting it use it specials and growl more often which leads to a higher damage output.
Another solid talent for greatly increasing your pet's damage output. Also great against casters, as it will put pressure on them when your pet is frenzied and keeps interrupting their casting.
One of the "core" DPS increasing talents in the tree. Passive 20% white DPS to you and your pet. Scales incredibly well, and provides a significant damage boost. Is worth about a 10-15% DPS increase when 5 points are spent here. Note that it is not a straight, direct 20% DPS increase because special attacks such as and are unaffected by this talent.
These two talents combined together makes Beast mastery Hunters the bane of casters and healers in PvP, as well as provides significant dps boost in PvE. 18 seconds are more than enough for an uncrowd-controllable hunter and his pet to kill any unwary caster/healer. It can also be activated to break any CC on your pet. In raids, use it as often as possible and if possible, combine it with a trinket such as for a high damage output in fights.
MM Key talents
This talent extends the daze effect of by 2 seconds. It provides the opportunity to kite your opponent or run away from them. Essential PVP talent. Much less useful in late-game PvE, and nearly useless in raiding, as many high-level mobs are immune to stun effects.
Straight DPS upgrade. Coupled with Mortal Shots, is almost essential.
Also the essential means of taking down spell casters quickly with a huge upfront punch.
Decent in both PvP and PvE, although more so in PvP. The cooldown reduction on Rapid Fire is good, and the 20% damage buff increases the punch on any opener you throw within a reasonable timeframe. (Note: still procs off mobs that would yield experience if you are level-capped, also procs off PvP NPCs that grant neither XP nor honour)
A must-have for almost any Hunter. The 30% buff to your critical hits applies to all of your shots as well, significantly increasing your DPS. Also one of the primary reasons to pick up Aimed Shot, which has only limited utility after 2.0.
Resets cooldown on all Hunter abilities. Commonly overlooked, this is a panic button that gives the Hunter redundancy. If you have a mob locked with freeze trap and draw an add, you can hit Readiness and drop another trap to freeze the add. If Feign Death is initially resisted, you can hit Readiness for another roll of the dice. In long fights, you can also use Rapid Fire once, then Readiness, and Rapid Fire again. It can also be used against difficult or larger mobs. Immolation Trap, draw the mob to the trap, Readiness, jump forward, drop Snake Trap on mob, feign to drop aggro from traps, jump back, and commence shooting.
A bonus the hunter can provide his groupmates with. Rogues, DPS warriors and beast mastery/survival spec hunters will love you for this.
Necessary to get the much-needed as well as give a significant boost to your overall DPS - as marksmanship has more use in PVE than beast mastery, this is essential to obtain the high DPS needed for tougher mobs
SURV Key talents
Hands down the best talent of all the hunter trees. It boosts Physical AP of all raid members (not just party) by 25% of the hunter's agility. This is what draws end-game hunters to the SV tree. The only downside is that it requires 600-700 agility to become truly effective for the raid. Bringing one SV hunter to raid is almost the equivalent of bringing a 26th DPSer, if your raid is heavily melee oriented. This talent is the key to the SV tree for raiders.
+6 yard range should not be underestimated: It gives hunters the best range of any class in the game. Although the advantage of this in PvP should hopefully be self-explanatory, the benefit of this skill in solo PvE is primarily due to Survival's damage being crit based. As such, even after the pet loses aggro, with this skill, if a Hunter begins at maximum range from their target, they should still be able to kill the target before it reaches melee range.
This talent allows you a possible root to make range on your target and also getting in one or two hits with your melee weapon before getting some distance to the mob.
You get both a boost to your chance to hit as well as the possibility of negating root effects. The +hit won't show on the character sheet, but Hunters with this talent can safely choose more gear without the +hit stat. Somewhere around 3-4% more will be needed if you do high-end raiding - while Hunters without this talent need around 6-8% depending on which instances/raids the Hunter does.
Increasing the critical strike chance of all your attacks is key - especially with the Expose Weakness talent.
Cannot be avoided by your opponent, but you can miss. It will root your target and does damage all after you successfully parry attack.
- Note: Deflection is a must-have talent if you plan on getting counterattack.
A 3-15% increase in Agility. This talent is the backbone of a dedicated Survival Hunter's ranged damage. Agility is the primary stat needed to make use of Survival; it provides attack power, %crit, %dodge, and armour. It also allows one of the best dps debuffs in WoW - Expose Weakness.
Originally the trademark Survival talent. Wyvern's strength isn't primarily as an extended duration form of crowd control, but rather as an initial opening stun or surprising move which can throw an opponent off-guard, and also leaves the Hunter free to perform a follow up sequence of attacks. While it can also be used as a fail safe in the event that a freeze trap fails, this is risky, and requires that the non-crowd controlled target(s) in a given scenario be killed quickly. If used in addition to a freeze trap, this makes a Survival hunter one of few who can crowd control up to three mobs at the same time.
In solo PvE, Wyvern is primarily used to buy time. In a fight against two caster mobs for example where the Hunter is currently focused on killing one but is being shot by the other, the second mob can be shot with Wyvern to allow the Hunter time to kill the first mob without continuing to be shot themselves by the second.
- Note: This ability, when combined with Freezing traps allows a hunter to leave 3 mobs out of combat instead of one or two. Initially, the hunter lays a Freezing trap and waits a bit for the cooldown of traps. Then pull group regularly or open with wyvern - wyvern can now be shot in combat which makes it a lot more useful, so one generally likes to wait with that shot. The first mob to chase the hunter gets trapped. Then put a new freezing trap down a little away from the first trapped mob and if you didn't open with wyvern sting you now shoot one to sleep and let the third mob run into the last trap. With improved traps you should now have three mobs CC´ed for approx 27, 23 and 12 seconds. Then start your kiting and spam new traps as the old one breaks. Remember that if you feign death you will reset all aggro, so be sure they won't cause problems for the rest of the group/raid.
Major Talent overhauls from Patch 4.0.1
With the overhauls that have taken place, should people add the new trees to the current page and simply relegate the old ones to a subheading in the same page, or move the current ones to a "legacy" page? RellanWindseeker (talk) 16:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
- Replace the old ones with the new ones. No need for a "legacy" page - we haven't done so before with removed talents. -- 17:01, 24 October 2010 (UTC)