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Talk:Life spans

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What about them?--Gurluas 15:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Whelpling is the same term for "whelp" I think. Whelp is just short for whelpling.Baggins 10:24, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The small pets are much smaller than the whelps mobs, thus leading me to believe they must be younger?

maybe it newly hatched?, maybe they mean it takes 1 year for a whelpling to become a whelp and 100 years for a whelp to become a drake?, given whelps are plenty while drakes are rare.--Gurluas 13:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Whelplings and whelps are interchangable terms, in many sources, as far as I know. No your idea is wrong, it is very specific that between 1 and 100 years they are drakes already. Anything before that is considered a "whelp". Actually to be clear the book doesn't even mention whelps by that term, it just states that, no one had encountered any young dragons smaller than a drake, and that drakes, dragons, and wyrms are the three main age categories for dragons. Of course we do know that a few characters have since encountered whelps/whelplings (black whelps in Warcraft III in Barrow Dens comes to mind). If I recal correctly the implication in Warcraft III when the black whelps were first encountered, the heroes thought they were rare, of course MoM implies that anything younger than a drake is rare for dragons. It isn't until WoW that whelps started coming out of the woodwork so to speak.
BTW as its related, Monster Guide speaks of whelps being earliest stage of dragons growth, but does not speak of exact age between whelps and drakes.
Also, lest you forget the dragon whelps in ony cave encounter, are "newly hatched" when they start attacking you. So size matters not. That would also point to there being no difference between the term whelp and whelplings.Baggins 23:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Well to make things even stranger, Dark Factions implies that not all whelps become drakes. It's possible for whelps can grow into adulthood and eventually die of old age/venerable/maximum age before ever becoming a drake. These whelps are basically giant oversized whelps (an adult whelp is at least 4 feet tall).Baggins (talk) 21:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Netherwing Dragonflight

The Netherwing Dragonflight is an incredibly young flight, having only been extant since Draenor was shattered - about 24 years by the beginning of the Burning Crusade - and as such, would all be drakes were they a different dragonflight as the age progressions provided show:

Whelps 0-1 Drakes 1-100 Mature 100+

However, I'm guessing that the fact that Neltharaku and his mate Karynaku are clearly mature dragons despite their young age means that the same rules don't apply. Thoughts? --User:Vorbis/Sig 19:32, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Well there is some issues even with red dragonflight. If you go by details mentioned in Day of the Dragon, it would seem that red dragons were aging quickly... Their eggs were hatched, they grew into mounts, and they were apparently killed before they got too old and were uncontrollable. The problem I see here is that the time period between the second war and the battle of Grim Batol is very short indeed, something like 4-5 years? Warlock aging perhaps?
For the case of netherwings? The affect of the twisting nether?Baggins (talk) 19:38, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Night elven aging

Adult:300 (or 110) Middle age:500 Old:650 Venerable:700 Max age: 705-1200 (or up to 2000)

Nordrassil stood for 10 000 years, rendering the maximum age up to roughly 12 000 years; if you were old or venerable when Nordrassil was planted.

Even though, the Warcraft Encyclopedia states that "all elves are now mortal and have comparable lifespans that can extend as long as several thousand years". I'm not sure how to interpret this, but several thousand should be more than 2000. It might be that after losing their immortality, they've gained a longer life span than they had before the planting of Nordrassil. If I'm right in this, the maximum age per today still is 12 000.

Any thoughts on this? --Oponyxal 20:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

It should be noted that these are characters (player characters) that have been born in the last 2000 years. That is they will have shorter lifespan than those that were living 10,000 years ago. Remember its a player character age table. The idea is one is playing characters that may be less knowledgeable than elders in their race. Although that's really just a suggestion anyone could play anyway they wanted to if they chose to. Infact one doesn't even have to stick to the table if they don't want to.Baggins (talk) 05:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Coobra is 5,344 years old... Doesn't look a day over 5,000 though. =) User:CoobraSssssssssssssssssssssssss User:CoobraFor Pony! {TDon't hiss at me.CIf you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.) 20:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

um yea the night elves were inmortal it says so in Warcraft III, when talking about Malfurion's plan about burning the world tree Tirande says : "you do realize that we will age like this mortals" or something like that


All we know about them is that they're (at least) extremely long-lived, right?
User:QitelRemel/Sig 23:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

My guess is 10,000 years for pure Eredar and 1,000 for draenei, and immortal for Man'ari eredar(demons are immortal)User:Airiph/sig 23:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed on man'ari being immortal. But regarding draenei lifespans, check Jessera of Mac'Aree's page. (Also, "pure eredar" = draenei.)
User:QitelRemel/Sig 23:06, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
No, draenei have to live for at least 25,000 years. Velen and Jessera for example. Jormungand01 (talk) 15:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

25,000 is really long for even draenei, so 25.000-30.000 could be maximun lifespan that only heroes (velen, ect) can reach.Noobi666 (talk) 13:47, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

so here is my fanfict draenei lifespan:

adulhoof:3750, middle age:8750, old:13250, venetable:17500, maximum:25.000-30.000. Noobi666 (talk) 13:47, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Someone on Bloodmyst Isle, can't remember who, says "few now remember Argus" or something like that. Which indicates that there must be others who are that old. As for those who have died since leaving Argus, I'd expect quite a lot of those to have been killed by the Horde in Draenor, or else in the crashes of Oshu'gun and Exodar. So this seems to suggest that not so long ago (relatively) there was a sizeable population of draenei aged 25,000+. User:Jormungand01/sig

...or only few have lived to presence day, meaning that some died to old age? Noobi666 (talk) 14:31, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, some will likely have died of old age over the millenia, but if there are a few still alive today there must once have been more. And I'd be very surprised if the ones aged 24,900 a hundred years ago all survived the Horde. Assuming a large proportion of them died then, there would have been quite a few who were that old beforehand. In addition a hundred years isn't much compared to the 25,000 they have lived so far, so I doubt that the deaths between then and now have all been from old age. User:Jormungand01/sig

The page is currently claiming that they're immortal.  AFAIK, that's still only speculation.  (As for "age categories" as per D&D...I'd link to the Writerium, but it seems to be down.)

As for "few now remember Argus," I'd put that down to the massacres on Draenor.  (Path of Glory, anyone?  That's a lot of bones.)
IconSmall Draenei Female.gif Farseer Loloteacontrib 12:36, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

3750 for adulthood? No wonder there are no Draenei drunks around, they're not of legal drinking age.
But to serious matters now, has anyone considered the idea that "few now remember Argus" isn't really so weird? You live to a few millenia and live on a vast surplus of worlds. Think you can still make out which world was which after all that? I wouldn't, I can't even remember my neighbors of 3 years ago.
Also, people have asked Metzen so many uestions about the lore, why hasn't ANYONE ever bothered asking him this?
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by A058227 (talk · contr).
Would Exarch Menelaous' text hint at a Draenei regular life span of 2,500 years? According to one of the comments on his wowhead page he says that the draenei spent 10 lifetimes fleeing from the Burning Legion. Delteri

Draenei lifespans need not be 25,000 years plus because of the 25,000 years of flight from Argus because of several possibilities. We know there are stasis pods at the crash site, so some sort of suspended animation could allow a draenei who would die of old age to survive thousands of years of space flight. We also know that the Exodar was a ship that could travel both through time and space, so it seems logical to consider whether any previous flights the draenei made may have employed the similar time travel technologies.
There are draenei children orphans in Shattrath. What is the period of time between the fall of Shattrath to the orcs and its reestablishment upon the arrival of the Sha'tar naaru, and how long from the arrival of the naaru until present day? It seems likely those children were born only after the fall of Shattrath, and perhaps even after its rebuilding -- although perhaps they are also from the draenei camps in hiding after the fall. The fall seems at most 51 years ago, going by the official timeline and the Rise of the Horde. Cxj (talk) 21:56, February 10, 2010 (UTC)


Why nerubians are separated from the other races? --Forco (talk) 21:33, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Long life spans

Greetings, i'm wondering why do some humans live to the severly long age of 125? Is there some typ of magic involved? Terrorblades (talk) 09:28, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Yes some mages can extend their lives with magic. The most prominent example being Aegwyn who lived to be over 800 years old. She of course is a very special case as she had the powers of the Tirisfallen at her disposal. I dont remeber where the issue is touched upon exactly but i seem to remember it stating it was very uncommon for mages to do this and even then it was nearly unheard of for a mage to see a second century.Warthok Talk Contribs 09:47, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
I added a note with it in the article. I hope it doesnt mean anything to you that i copied a couple of your lines. Aedror42 (talk) 10:19, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Worgen are the same as humans?

Obviously Worgen are transformed, "cursed" humans, but where does it actually say they still retain a human lifespan? For all we know, the addition of a druidic essence would grant them greater longevity. Near the end of the Worgen starting zone, they become attuned to nature similar to the Night elves. There's a section talking about magic prolonging life expectancies, and nature-based magic would definitely qualify, being life giving. What I'm suggesting is that we remove the "Worgen" from the "Human/Worgen" part on the top table, and add a part on this page noting the uncertainty of their lifespan and the possibility that they exceed human expectations. NPC Worgen display characteristic "Werewolf" traits of supernatural strength, endurance, etc. Like Draenei, we can't be sure. Myrlen Midnightstar (talk) 22:25, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe any lore specifies ages or lifespans for human Worgen specifically. Since they are human though, the best assumption would be that they age the same way normal humans do. Besides, Gilneans have only been Worgen for a short time, so it's probably impossible to tell at the "present" whether or not their lifespans are affected in any way. Synchronizor (talk) 23:10, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

However, Night elves were given lifespans of 2,000 years after losing their immortality, and it certainly hasn't been that long since they lost it. Also, Worgen are not human. Their human guise is just that: a guise. A tether to their previous humanity. Similar to the Worgen before them, who were revealed to be Night elven Savagekin who had lost themselves to their original wolf forms and became lupine humanoids. The Gilnean Worgen regaining sanity makes them mentally different from the prior Worgen, but physically they're the same. So it would be inaccurate to throw them in as human, just because we know they *were* human. Myrlen Midnightstar (talk) 02:02, 21 April 2011 (UTC)


I've tagged the article with the RPG non-cannon tag in light of the new info.--Mondoblasto (talk) 22:53, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Extreme Cleanup/Movement of the Article

About 90% of this article's information is based off of the RPG, as such it'd be considered non-cannon. The Life span of a race is pretty important, plus the information is extremely outdated, using TBC lore concurrently with that of Cata lore as though it were present. I understand some information may have it's place in the RPG version, but not when it comes to WoW. Should the page be moved to Life Spans (RPG) and another page made for that for life spans according to confirmed WoW lore? Or just fix the page up into separate sections? Because at the moment, it's rather inaccurate.--Whitedragon254 (talk) 21:21, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Are life spans even touched upon much elsewhere?--SWM2448 21:54, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
They are indeed, It's honestly an important aspect for those of us who RP, and using outdated information from a wiki expected to provide up to date info can actually impact things. As for age being touched upon, various quests/NPCs and using the timeline of Warcraft can actually piece together a suitable set of confirmed information on age. I'm working on updating it right now, it'd split the article into confirmed age and RPG age.--Whitedragon254 (talk) 22:10, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
I've put up the article after the edit. It's been split into confirmed age and ages using the RPG. The page's info before the change is mostly un-touched in the RPG section.--Whitedragon254 (talk) 23:13, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Can you add more citation on the actual ages?--SWM2448 23:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
It'll take me sometime but yes, I can gather up the various sources.--Whitedragon254 (talk) 23:59, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
If they are not cited, I will remove them. Or maybe just flag it as speculation and reword the opening.--SWM2448 00:25, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Thrall' Age

Well, I won't start an edit war with Whitedragon (I thought you had counted the years) because of this, but the reference on the orc's adulthood age related to Thrall doesn't poin to him having 18 or 20. The Second War started during year 6, and if you read "Tides of Darkness", it begined shortly after the First. Thrall was born when Gul'dan still reigned over the Horde, so, if you want to point a date, it would have at year 5 o 5 and a half. We know that "The Lord of the Clans" occurs during year 18. So... we have an adult Thrall with 12 years... Not with 18 or 20.

I know it's stupid, but if you want to have an orc's adulthood age based on Thrall birth, the age should change. --Cemotucu (talk) 01:51, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I've done timeline research as i will state below, Using various markers such as Arthas' age. Durotan was assassinated while Doomhammer was Warchief (Assassins loyal to Gul'dan assassinate Durotan and Draka following them telling Doomhammer about Gul'dan's treasonous ways shortly after Doomhammer kills Blackhand.), which was during the first war's major battles, which would be during the same year as the ending of the First war and the death of Llane. His age is actually a confusion area however of atleast 4 years. Reign of Chaos Manual states thrall was 24 at the time of Reign of Chaos so his parents were actually slaughtered 4 years prior to the major battles that would be considered the one year period of the first war in new lore (Rather than Over 10 years of fighting, 10 years being merely skirmishes, The first war is often condensed into the final year of major battles that led to the defeat of Azeroth by the Horde.) I've taken my timeline i've posted on the WoW forums and added in Thrall's place here based on several sources for him. I've bolded Thrall's actions in these times.

Year -10: The Orcs have invaded Azeroth. They assault Stormwind but fail to destroy it, Adamant Wrynn is killed. (Source is Warcraft 1.)
Year -4: Arthas is born. (Tides of Darkness) Thrall is born. Draka and Durotan are murdered.
Year 0: The First War's major battles occur. This is the commonly accepted "First War". It ends in the same year. Arthas is 4. Thrall is 4. (Arthas and Thrall were born 4 years before the start of the First War. As the First war is commonly defined as the last major battles and not the 10 years of skirmishes, I'm going by the common definition rather than literal. The Literal one would make them both not fit in the timeline at all. For the timeline to line up correctly and for both of them to be 24 as the RoC manual states, his parents must have been murdered 4 years prior or thrall wouldn't be 24 at the time of RoC.)
Year 6: The Second War begins in this year. Arthas: Rise to the Lich King covers the part of this year in the beginning in which Arthas is 10 and the war hasn't started just yet. According to timeline information, The War lasted a year or so before the orcs were crippled and defeated. Gilneas began construction of the Greymane Wall and cut ties with the Alliance. Alterac was destroyed. Thrall is about 10 and being raised as a gladiator still.
Year 8: Beyond the Dark Portal takes place. The Portal has been closed for 2 years. Arthas is 12. Thrall is 12.
Year 15: Arthas is 19, he is inducted into the order of the Silver Hand under Uther as his teacher. (Arthas: Rise of the Lich King) Anduin Wrynn is born. (Backtrack 10 years from WoW's start, where Anduin is 10.) Thrall is about 19 as well. According to Old Hillsbrad (Which is when thrall breaks out), Arthas is just beginning his tutelage as a knight under Uther. It's around this timeframe that Thrall breaks free from Durnholde.
Year 20: Arthas is 24. Anduin is 5. The Plague of Undeath begins to ravage Lordaeron as the third war begins. Thrall is 24 and begins the chain of events that will bring the orcs to Kalimdor. (Reign of Chaos Manual states both he and arthas is 24 years old.)
Year 21: The Battle for Mount Hyjal. Anduin is 6 years old. The Third war is Ended. Arthas is 25, Thrall is 25.
Year 25: World of Warcraft begins, Anduin is 10 years old. Four years since the Third War ended have passed, It has been 19 years since the Dark Portal was closed. Arthas is 26. Thrall is 26
Year 26: World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade begins. It has been 20 years since the Portal was closed. Anduin is now 11. Arthas was 27. Thrall is 27.
Year 27: World of Warcraft: The Wrath of the Lich King begins. Anduin is still 12 by the death of Arthas according to the novel Stormrage, which takes place shortly after the death of the Lich King. At the time of his death, Arthas was either 27 or 28. Thrall is 28.
Year 28: World of Warcraft: Cataclysm begins. According to Wolfheart and the Shattering, Anduin is 13 years old by the beginning of Cataclysm. Thrall is about 29.

As you can see by the timeline I've included here, Thrall was 19 at the time of his being described as a "Young Adult".--Whitedragon254 (talk) 04:00, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

The thing is... You're basing this on the account of the W3 manual, which has lore mistakes, like the ages of the Stormrage brothers and Tyrande and she herlserlf beign a princess. Plus, your timeline contradicts the timeline depicted in the official website prior the digital revamp: http://web.archive.org/web/20070116010622/http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/timeline.html
That timeline shows that the Draenei-Orc War started one year prior to the opening of the Dark Portal. Then, W1 begins and the First War ends at year 6, showing that Durotan visited Orgrimm a time before he took control of the Horde while Thrall was a baby. The novel Tides of Darkness shows how quickly both sides (Horde and Alliance) built their armies and begin battling somewhere in Hillsbrad. Then, as you say, the invasion of Draenor beginned during year 8, after the DP had been closed for a year. Finally, the batte of Durnholde occurs during year 18. Those are 12 o 13 years and 14 or 15 years during the Third War.
The reason we have different accounts is that: you say Thrall has 24, while other sources point that he's not. It's Blizzard's fault.
But the thign is similar in the case of Garrosh. Everything points to garrosh being older than Thrall as we has depicted as a young warrior during the BtDP novel, but the Lord of the Clans always refers to him a a boy.
--Cemotucu (talk) 21:29, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not using the offical years of WoW and most certainly not basing it solely on the RoC manual, I'm using my own based off of 10 years prior to the first war's major battles. Also, My time line actually lines up accurately with the 2007 timeline. Beyond the Dark Portal has been changed several times apparently to now be what happened also after the closing of the portal.. So it's been about two years shoved in there..somewhere. Regardless, Going by the age timeline after having to re-look at the sources, It still places 18-20. Also no, You are reading my timeline wrong, I have not even included the draenei-orc war in this timeline, it's only about once the orcs invade azeroth that i am counting. Years -10 through 0 are the full first war, There was 10 years of meaningless skirmishes for 10 years that has more recently not been considered part of the war apparently. Regardless, In the end the timeline is as accurate as it can be using given sources. You're correct about blizzard borking something up in there, But it still stands for Thrall being about 18-20. EDIT: In addition to that timeline you provided, Lord of the Clans takes place during year 18, Thrall's parents were murdered sometime before the end of the First War, which according to that timeline was year 0. (The Second war began 6 years AFTER the first war ended.) That's still 18 years.--Whitedragon254 (talk) 22:01, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
The thing is... that the official timeline says that the First War started during year 0. The book Rise of the Horde (the Draenei orc War) started 1 year before. And the First War ended months or several weeks before year 6, when the Second War started and was fighted during a year. I understand if you use your own timeline counting the references of manuals, but Blizzard simply retconned the dates: it'd be impossible that the orcs had arrived 10 years prior to year 0, because year 0 it's the year when the DP was open, plus Rise of the Horde taking place 1 year before the opening. We have different opinions because of the timelines: yours having this 10 years prior year 0. If you take the official timeline as it is, Thrall was an adult when he was twelve.--Cemotucu (talk) 11:51, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
The First war started and ended in the same year according to the official timeline. They didn't seem to retcon the "Second War began 6 years following the destruction of Stormwind." part.--Whitedragon254 (talk) 04:37, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The oficcial timeline says that the First War started in year 0. It didn't say when it ended. We could guess the ending because of the novel "Tides of Darkness", that shows that the Second War started shortly before the First. If the Alliance would have had 6 years to build up, as well as the Horde, many things would have been different.
Also, to show you that Warcraft 1 extended for more than a year, i quote this from the official site, in the section "The Dark Portal and the Fall of Stormwind":
'After a few years the majority of the orcish Horde had crossed into Azeroth, and Gul’dan deemed that the time for the primary strike against humanity had come. The Horde launched its full might against the unsuspecting kingdom of Stormwind.'
Even if the First War extended only a year, the opening of the Dark Portal is set in year 0. And the I War ended shortly before the II started, as showed in the novel.--Cemotucu (talk) 19:13, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Please. Read. What. I. Said. I said that the first war has referred now to the point when THE MAJORITY OF THE ORCISH HORDE arrived in azeroth. They'd already been in azeroth for 10 years, Which I stated several times. The Proper usage of the first war would be the 10 years of meaningless skirmishes and the year of downfall, however more modern references to the war only take on the 1 year in which they had destroyed Azeroth (kingdom). Also. The second war started 6 years after the end of the First War which is stated to have ended after Stormwind was razed. Second War, Read the page. 6 years after the razing of stormwind. The razing of stormwind ended the first war.--Whitedragon254 (talk) 23:31, 7 March 2012 (UTC)


So because the RPG is now considered non-canon, that makes all age related info wrong and marked as unknown for nearly every category of every race...

It's hard to believe that such info would be considered false just because citations can't be found from non-RPG sources. Snake.gifSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3.gifFor Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 04:36, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

It is sadly no longer canonical Warcraft lore.--SWM2448 04:37, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Oh well, least we still have the preserved RPG info. Seems like the table is unnecessary now, seems to only contain Unknown info lol.Snake.gifSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3.gifFor Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 04:43, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Well... not exactly. The canon info contradicts to RPG. We need a table that shows the canon age's information, even if said table is incomplete.
I'll check the novels for any age reference I can find. --Cemotucu (talk) 19:02, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Orc Age

If Thrall was the same size as a Human around age 6, wouldn't that mean Orcs reach adulthood at age 6? That's also when they start weapon training.. Cannibeans (talk) 00:34, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

They are strong enough to fight at 12, which is when they are allowed to go on hunting parties. Also, the warlocks aged the children over 6 to age 12 so they could join the war effort. The orcs have a rite of adulthood (Om'riggor) that takes place at an unspecified age after 12. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 23:58, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Reaching the size of a human does not mean reaching adulthood. There are many animals that are full grown long before the end of their adolescence. -- DarkTZeratul (talk) 00:20, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Gotcha. Thank you guys for the reply! Cannibeans (talk) 00:34, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

We Finally Have Draenei Aging

Here is Isel in Outland (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=18914) a fully grown adult. Here is Isel on Draenor (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=80007/isel) a small child. Looking back at Rise of the Horde, on page 246 when Durotan sees that same Draenei girl he saw twenty-ish years ago in Telmor hasn't aged a bit, I think it's safe to say that Draenei reach adulthood anywhere from age 20 to 35, though it's most likely from 25 or even 30 to 35 since that girl, according to Durotan, didn't look -any- different. Not even a little. Here's the link to the original thread where the discussion is still going: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/15699451917

So... Could we put this in somewhere? Cannibeans (talk) 09:24, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Durotan wasn't sure it was the same girl. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Either way, I believe Isel is enough evidence to put at least something up. Maybe just a speculation footnote? =Cannibeans (talk) 07:08, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Just checking up on this. Isel still proves that Draenei reach adulthood in less than 35 years. It'd be nice to have some sort of note up there. =Cannibeans (talk) 02:25, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Malfurion's age

The first dark trolls settled next to the Well of Eternity 15000 BDP (Chronicle). The first night elves emerged 14000 BDP (WoW Magazine V2I1). For WC3 Manual and Loreology to be true, Malfurion being 15032 years old in 30 ADP, he would have been older than the first night elves. Chronicle says Malfurion was a young night elf during the War of the Ancients. He was not 5000 years old at that time. It's clear that Blizzard went back on what Loreology tweeted.

And regarding the first point, I amended the citation to more accurately depict what the WotA trilogy indicated. The WoTA trilogy says he's an adult and a few decades old. That means it takes at most a few decades for the night elves to reach adulthood, especially when Malfurion is a young adult. Both might not have been within the same passage or even book, but both pieces of info given in the trilogy. --Aquamonkeyeg (talk) 16:55, 28 May 2016 (UTC)


From World of Warcraft: Illidan, ch. 6: "Vandel inspected the speaker. He had the ageless look of a mature night elf, which meant he could be any age from twenty years to fifteen thousand." --Mordecay (talk) 11:13, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Troll age

Thanks for the bit of new GM "clarification", Cannibeans, while you're right, citations from a Game Master might not be 100% true, it's still something!

Though... I don't want to preach but, if we think logically about troll regeneration and how it works... long story short, they should be biologically immortal.

If anyone's interested in the "longer" story, you can have a read-through of this: Troll Immortality. I had a bit of a moment... of which I'm proud. :') WarGodZajru (talk) 01:13, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

I clarified on the source about the trustworthiness of GMs. -Cannibeans (talk) 04:55, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
I know, hence why I put clairification within quotation, as you said, it might not be 100% true. WarGodZajru (talk) 12:05, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
There is no reason to continue removing the "Around 250" tidbit when the information comes directly from Blizzard. If it's sketchy, which it is, we can clarify that, which I did, but continuing to remove it entirely is pointless when it is new information that should be included. I am adding it back because this is beneficial information to the article and removing it because there's a small debate about how to format it is just stupid. -Cannibeans (talk) 10:13, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
You don't know that it comes "directly from Blizzard". Please stop re-adding it. Forum:Game_masters_and_lore -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 15:25, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
It's a screenshot of a ticket? Of course it comes directly from Blizzard. -Cannibeans (talk) 06:26, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
This too is a "screenshot of a ticket" : http://i.imgur.com/GnSwcWU.png See the problem? -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 06:52, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Aside from the painfully obvious tampering. What reason would I have to fake a GM ticket? That would takes hours in photoshop, all to answer lore questions that may or may not even have merit, which was clarified. I asked before here and on the forums and no one else had an issue with it, so long as the credibility of the statement was clarified. If the answer went in direct conflict with lore then I'd believe there was an issue but this seems to clearly line up with what's already established. -Cannibeans (talk) 07:12, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
I never said you would do this. And no, it wouldn't take more than 5 minutes. But it seems like you got the point: it can be done. Screenshots are neither official, nor reliable, sources. This was discussed here Forum:Game_masters_and_lore. -- MyMindWontQuiet (talk) 07:20, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Blood elves and immortality

So, Alleria says the Sunwell allows immortality, she's chilling at 3,800 years old still looking 20, Anasterian died at 3,000 and was old as crap and our attempt at rationalizing this over on the Story Forums is that the stress affected him greatly biologically which caused him to age; this also helps explain how and why Velen and Turalyon physically age when they're both immortal as well (being Lightforged makes you immortal). This aside, should we change the 3,000 bit on the blood elven part to Immortal? Cannibeans (talk) 07:38, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

I really don't think high and blood elves were supposed to be immortal... Could we have confirmation from the lore team before to overhaul things? Xporc (talk) 08:33, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
I never have luck tweeting them, though I have a dialogue open with one now on my ticket. Issue is, people seem very split on whether or not that's canon. Cannibeans (talk) 08:58, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
If by ticket, you mean in-game ticket, just be mindful, that GM-conversations aren't counted as official source. Even if what a GM says might fully be "correct", if it is only stated somewhere in a 1 on 1 conversation, it can't be properly cited, although it might help explain certain things. PeterWind (talk) 11:14, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
I've received clarification from them before but met a lot of resistance on here about whether or not what they said was canon. Cannibeans (talk) 15:06, 25 September 2017 (UTC)


Why would the UVG art be non-canon? --Mordecay (talk) 19:31, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, UVG artwork is completely canon. That was kind of the point of the UVG; a canon sort-of alternative to the world building that the RPG previously gave us. -Cannibeans (talk) 22:39, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
File:Cenarius1.jpg and File:Tyrande WotA TCG.jpg are both in the UVGs hence the question about UVG art being non-canon. Plus TCG page currently states that the pictures were done to be as close to canon as possible. --Mordecay (talk) 14:56, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

The book itself is canon (this includes the artwork); was already said by Loreology. — Surafbrov T / C / P 15:05, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Yea, even if we wished it wasn't :-( --Mordecay (talk) 15:09, 23 March 2018 (UTC)


I don't understand why, on the "Dwarf" line of the timespan table, "Around 200" is considered "Old". The reference, simply stating that "Muradin Bronzebeard was 221 years old during the Third War", does not imply that Muradin was considered old back then, at least not how it is reformulated. Can we please get the exact quote and/or remove the entry for "Old" on that line?--KIROCHI) 17:54, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

You make a good point. Nothing suggests Muradin even today is old. I'll move it over to Middle-aged, which seems much more likely. -Cannibeans (talk) 18:00, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Lor'themar Theron & Zul'jin

I don't agree completely removing it from the page. Although it may be odd, it's what we've got, and it should be kept. --Mordecay (talk) 00:11, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

We use all sources even if they contradict themselves, but since that one is apparently dubious/he doesn't seem certain (keeps saying "if I remember" etc.), I'm not sure we should use it ? I'll try to ask someone at Blizz in the mean time. -- MyMindWontQuiet 00:23, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
What's the situation? -Cannibeans (talk) 00:24, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
I just saw the tweet. We use tweets with "dubious" language like that from Copeland all the time. I see no reason why we should treat this particular one any different. -Cannibeans (talk) 00:28, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
On this page ? (The tweet is still used on other pages.) -- MyMindWontQuiet 00:35, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
I just meant in general, across Wowpedia. A lot of lore answers given through tweets tend to start with "I believe" or similar language, in my experience. I'm thinking we have a legitimate source here stating Zul'jin is 3,000 years old, no matter how contradictory this makes everything else. -Cannibeans (talk) 00:40, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, he keeps saying that, but before he even responded, it was Crow who said it first, twice actually, in the thread, and he keeps liking Neilson's posts. I think this should also be a factor?
Unrelated to the page, but you said Lor'themar's model now matches his previous art, but isn't it the opposite? Nowhere in the art has he the goatee and the armor is also new. And Neilson referred to him (with relation to the model) as an old timer as well.
I agree with Cannib here. Even this "discrepancy" should be recorded as much as possible. Maybe as Rastakhan ruled "just" over 200 years, it doesn't mean he is young, maybe he is an old timer as well, but with just short rule. Who knows at this point :-/
You said that it should be only on the novella and Zul'jin page, but the tweet affects more persons and things (like this page) and it should be in every related pages. I also think that the Troll Wars bit should be moved back to the main paragraphs since now Neilson confirmed that it was intended (which Crow also liked). --Mordecay (talk) 00:41, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Like I said, it makes very little sense and throws a lot of other lore into confusion, but... it's official, from Micky Neilson's mouth, so we just kind of have to.. work with it. But it should definitely be noted here. This will shake up the RP community quite a bit, since most everyone operates on a ~100 year lifespan assumption for trolls. -Cannibeans (talk) 00:48, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Honestly I wonder if it's not Crow who put that in Neilson's mind in the first place. (I mean there's no reason Crow would state BotH took place during the Troll Wars before Neilson's tweet other than by mistake, since the novel itself never states so. So maybe Neilson saw Crow's tweet stating that his novel says it's during the Troll Wars, & Neilson thus thought he remembered it like that.)
I guess we can still note it here though.
I don't know about literally every other page however. While it directly affects the novel itself, and directly affects Zul'jin('s page), the rest (like Galell) is just tangentially related (and that's more us making conclusions based on something that may have been true only at the time of writing) and seems like fluff.
Also strongly disagree about moving it to the main bodies of the respective pages, because something that is obviously wrong (or outdated) or contradicting never primes over the rest, especially on tangentially related pages. It should, at best, just be noted in the Notes section, just like we always do with weird things (names, dates..) and inconsistencies, never in the main bodies. -- MyMindWontQuiet 01:01, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
For Council and King states the length of Rastakhan's rule and in no way it states the length of troll maximum lifespan / old ages. Is there any reference referring to old ages of trolls at all? If not, there isn't really a inconsistency with the Neilson tweet, and it actually is the (maybe even first) reference for it.
Fine, the Notes section it is, then. --Mordecay (talk) 01:11, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
The only other source I am aware of was my ticket, when a GM told me their chart was showing ~250 for the end lifespan of a troll. I know MMWQ was particularly dismissive of those, however, so I'd agree that this tweet is our first and only source for troll aging, meaning it's not in direct conflict of anything else. I agree it should be added to the main life span table. I think I also agree that we don't need to overhaul a bunch of other pages based on this information, unless we get clarifying confirmation soon. -Cannibeans (talk) 01:16, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
They also make it a point on Zandalar, with the relationship between the tortollans and the Zandalari trolls, about how the tortollans live for millenia, so they know a lot about the Zandalari that they themselves do not (for example there's a tortollan who knew Rastakhan's own greatgrandfather), and they even say that in a kind of threatening tone. This reinforces the 200 figure (or whatever the "real" age is), and would directly contradict BFA, since it'd make no sense if the Zandalari too lived for millenia/just as long as the tortollans. -- MyMindWontQuiet 01:34, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Links? --Mordecay (talk) 01:36, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Would have to dig but there's this, from Tortollan Seeker about Rastakhan's greatgrandfather - "You would be amazed at how much political dirt you can obtain on a royal family if you live longer than they do." -- MyMindWontQuiet 01:43, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Any chance that could be chalked up to Rastakhan's ancestors being deposed / assassinated / killed in battle? Just because they could've lived to be ~2,800, doesn't mean they had to. Azeroth is a dangerous place, Zandalar especially. -Cannibeans (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
That'd be some kind of convenient and recurrent bad luck! This number is also all kinds of not-cool because it would mean the separation between trolls and night elves is.. 1, maybe 2, generations. Like a night elf at the time of the WotA could've had a dark troll mother or grandfather. Silly silly. -- MyMindWontQuiet 02:03, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

To restate my point on Slack: not only does it contradict literally everything we know about elven and troll lifespans and throw a huge number of things into chaos, but (perhaps more importantly) the source is a former Blizzard employee stating what he recalls the intention was in a story he wrote years ago, that never actually ended up in the story itself. It's certainly worth a note on the relevant page(s), but it otherwise falls into the same situation as similar sources (like the comment that the intent was for the Ashbringer to have been forged from a naaru) where it doesn't get used as lore sources for actively changing multiple pages. -- DarkTZeratul (talk) 16:53, 31 October 2018 (UTC)