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Talk:Shaman

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Shaman article.

Analyse that!
If you wish to discuss the subject itself, please use Talk:Shaman/Analysis.
Non-editorial comments made here should be moved to the Analysis page.

Gallery

Problem

I am seeing a lot of out of date information on the shaman pages. Are people working on updating them or have they been forgotten about?

Why is the page about Shamen just the page about Thrall? Am I the only person having this issue? EDIT: Never mind. Reverted vandalism.

Now that there is an exhaustive list of shaman spells and totems, should the Abilities section be altered at all? --Balthazar

I dunno. Maybe some of the sections needs to be shorten if it seems too overwhelming, but it doesn't bother me because I use the category/section box. The ability section is pretty short, but I can take some out like Water Walking and Reincarnation.
Also a side question, I noticed that the ability definition is kinda vague, so should we make it clear? One suggestion that I have in mind is to differentiate between abilities and spells: spells are class traits that uses mana points for combat, but abilities are class traits that do not use mana points, and utility spells. --Kultath 19:11, 8 Feb 2005 (EST)

Attributes

I added the followng: "This is how the five attributes affect a shaman [1]: Your level's worth of agility will increase your chance to crit on a melee hit by about 1.03% (e.g., +60 agility will give a level 60 shaman +1% crit)." From a post on the forums... I'm not sure this is correct though -- when I cast Grace of air I get +3% to crit per 60 agility (lv 60 shaman with 5/5 Thundering strikes and 2/2 in enhancing totems). I think the scale may be sliding, a kind of diminishing returns kind of forumula. Here's why: When I'm naked I have a 2.52% chance to crit (which surprised me since Thundering Strikes is supposed to give me +5% to crit, does that mean it's possible to have a "negative" percent chance to crit even if the game shows zero. Does it ever show zero)? Anyhow, 2.5% chance to crit when I'm naked, that's with a base agility of 57. With 28 more agility from armor I have 15.02%. With 77 more agility from GOA I have 18.93%.

What this demonstrates is that my first 28 points of agility gives me ~12% and the next 77 points of agility gives me ~4%. I'm thinking it's just not that simple a formula. If I get bored, I'll plot the incremental increases of % to crit vs each point of agility over my base. --Drolfeir 06:23, 17 July 2006 (EDT)

Merge

Are there any objections to merging Shaman (lore) with Shamanism? --Kakwakas 03:12, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

None from me :) -- Kirkburn (talk) 10:42, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

Um, I rather liked that the Shaman lore was an entirely seperate page from the class one, as there is a lot of history dealing with this class. Why not leave the two pages seperate with a link the way it was before?? Eryximachus 20:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Whats with the wolf clothes some shamans wear? How come the shamans in WOW don't wear its? --Ramming pure 11:18, 31 March 2007 (EDT)

For Consideration

I suggest that the History section be moved to Shaman. No other class page has one of these sections. --Supahglu 16:15, 6 February 2007 (EST)

The Restoration tree information is slightly out of date. Although the correct change to the [Mana Tide Totem] effect has been documented, it is no longer the end tree spell/ability. [Earth Shield] is now at the end of the tree, and functions as the shamans HoT (to some effect).

-- Oborro 18:45 27 February 2007

Since I do not know how to change it, I though I should point it out... the image of the female Tauren Shaman towards the top of the page is actually a Druid. She is wearing Tier 2 raid armor, the Stormrage set. I suggest that it should be moved to the druid page, especially since Tauren druids are not as represented visually there. --Hidden in trees 01:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Done.--SWM2448 01:18, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


Warlocks

Does not have much to do with shamanism but "Thrall banned the use of Warlock magic and necromancy. Because of this, there is no clear reason as to why there are Orc Warlock". I think most warlocks would try to stay hidden since they'd be åunished for using demonic powers.Zukhramm 11:26, 17 January 2007 (EST)

I think it's sort of implied that the orc warlocks keep their existence secret. That's why they're located in a dark pit, separate from the rest of the city (kinda the equivalent of a back alley in a rundown part of town). Obviously allowances have to be made, since this is a game above all else. But as far as the lore is concerned, I'm pretty sure that warlocks are meant to be an "underground" part of orc society.
--Bevans (FeldmanSkitzoid) 00:21, 6 March 2007 (EST)
Not to that extent, I think. In one of the earliest parts of the game for Horde players, namely the questline involving Ragefire Chasm, Thrall is completely aware of Neeru's existence and occupation. He says something along the lines of, "there's a warlock in the city who believes he has my ear," implying that the two have, if not actually met in person, then at least corresponded. And yes, Neeru is traitor and yes again, there *is* something in lore about Thrall banning the use of warlock magic; however, one of the very first things an orc warlock is informed is that Thrall tolerates warlocks because they are still his kin and something about how, if he abandoned the warlocks, he would be as bad as the humans; I don't remember the exact quote. The obvious question, then, would be; 'How do you draw the line between such "legal" warlocks and the evil Shadow Council-type warlocks that we hate?' My own theory is that the warlocks of Orgrimmar use demonic magic to defeat the Legion at its own game in exactly the same manner as the Demon Hunters of the Night Elves and the Guardians of Tirisfal, and as such shouldn't be grouped with those warlocks who were banished from the Horde, including groups such as the Blackrock clan and the cults of the Shadow Council. --Djaevlenselv 11:44, 29 March 2007 (EDT)

I thought this part of the page misleading, so I adjusted it to read as it does now. Comments? Eryximachus 21:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

fel orc shamans

Does anyone else find it odd that Bliz have contradited themselves by making fel-orc shamans (can be found in hellfire). Admittedly they have named them dark shamans but a shamans power comes from respect of the elements and i doubt fel orcs have that. What do you think? --Diggory 07:43, 8 February 2007 (EST)

They may draw their powers from wayward, rogue elementals.

Ragnaros is probably a good example of this. Atleast, that's my theory.--Zexx 13:56, 9 February 2007 (EST)

A shaman's powers come from elemental spirits, not elementals. There's a subtle difference there (and one that Blizz has mixed up on more than one occasion). Elementals are basically chaotic beings whose motivations are mostly unknown. They don't empower anyone with their magic. The elemental spirits, and the various other spirits, lend their power to those who honor them and ask for their aid (which is what shamans do). The spirits hear "help me defend my people" and they may not care whether that person is good or bad, or maybe they hope that by lending their power to a being, that they'll help to lead that being to redemption. Or it's also possible that the dark shamans are augmenting their powers with demonic magic, and perhaps even forcing the elements to come to them.

--Bevans (FeldmanSkitzoid) 00:17, 6 March 2007 (EST)

On the Elemental Spirits page, it states that the elemental spirits don't care too much about good and evil, order or chaos. The spirits just care about keeping the world in balance, and shamans are the mortals that help them do that. So whether the fel orcs are good or evil doesnt matter. Beterthanu

If the Blood Elves can capture a Naaru and use it to make paladins, there might be some strong elemental somewhere captured by the Fel Orcs -Rovdyr 13:54, 10 March 2007 (EST)

In Warcraft 3 when the orcs drink the blood of Mannoroth they get "fel shamans" or something like that. Maybe they can ask for their powers to some other spirit different from the ones, or even the same, cause anyway the elemental spirits are not evil or good for what blizzard said. superfranz8

Did anyone notice all the evil corrupted elemental spirits that are in Nagrand and other places in the world? The evil evil ones are probably much easier to control by fel shamans.Baggins 20:04, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

The elemental spirits do care about extreme amounts of evil like the scourge and Burning Legion. They have always been shown to hate the Burning Legion. Elemental spirits also hate those who defile nature. Dark shamans get their power from corrupted elemental spirits,regular sane ones won't work with them. Zarnks 21:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Wildhammer shamans?

On several pages now, I've seen the Wildhammer dwarves listed as practicioners of shamanism. Can anyone provide proof of this please? I've never seen anything to indicate that it's true.

--Bevans (FeldmanSkitzoid) 18:53, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

I dont know much about the topic, but as far as i know it is said somewhere in the RPG's(wich i dont have), at least thats what i have heard on the other pages -Rovdyr 18:48, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

I'm pretty sure citations for Wildhammer shamanism is already up on many pages. Look for hte little book and page number thing next to the Wildhammer information. In anycase the info exists in Lands of Conflict, Alliance & Horde Compendium, and Alliance Player's Guide.Baggins 20:03, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Dark Iron Shamans?

On the main page it says Dark Iron Dwarves have shamans because they really like fire. I find that weird since Dark Iron Dwarves are technology lovers and shamans do not like technology. If there is proof of them being shamans, shouldnt it be changed to dark shaman since theyre dark and evil like fel orcs?.

And Ive never seen a Dark Iron Shaman in WoW, not that means much since there's alot of stuff in Lore and Warcraft not in WoW. Mr.X8 02:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Ghost wolf

I think it would be cool if they made the Alliance counterpart to Ghostwolf, a ghost lion. As Wolves are the symbol of the Horde and Lions the symbol of the Alliance Zarnks 07:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The ability to commune with the dead

Wonder when shamans will get that ability back. And was this exclusive to orc shamans? Zarnks 21:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Devout shamans. Orcs revolved their culture around it.--SWM2448 21:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Only Wipe control?

Pally Divine Intervention (if you have 2 rezzers), Engineer Cables coupled with any of the Removal from Combat abilities (Invisibility, Feigh Death, Vanish)

Well I can't see anything saying they are the only wipe control, though they are the only class that can solo wipe control without engineering. Joeking16 16:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Warlocks and their [Soulstone].   Zurr  TC 23:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
That isn't solo wipe control, as they have to cast it on someone else that can res.

Elements

Just for clarification, I was reading Lord of the Clans the other day and it seemed that shamans like Thrall and Drek'thar also had a strong control over the Spirit of the Wilds. In WoW, this is probably shown through their healing abilities. But in RP, are druids stronger over nature than shamans because they work with fewer elemental Spirits? Jclipps 20:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Shamans do no control any of the spirits in any way, and druids are not affiliated with them. --Ragestorm (talk · contr) 16:14, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
It's more of a friendly relationship. Shamans do not demand power from the elements, they request it.Kraas (talk) 15:28, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Overpowered?

Well I've been hearing a lot of talk about shamans being overpowered. Is it true i don't have a shaman. I think personally that they aren't, nut still I want'd to know what others thought about the issue.--User:Gwyain/Sig 01:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

  • Firstly they were overpowered but it was reduced. That's why the number of Shamans went down with Wotlk while every other class went up. Secondly Shamans are like very weak rogues, mages and priests mixed together. Many choose a specified class over a pure, unfocused hybrid. BobNamataki (talk) 17:01, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Talent tree info

Someone recently edited out alot of the talent tree info on this page. At first I was wondering why, but then most of the info should have been in Shaman talents. If you see anything that was removed from here that is helpful, please put it in Shaman talents. --Gengar orange 22x22.png Fandyllic (talk · contr) 4:49 AM PST 7 Sep 2008

This bothers me:

shamans worship elementals who serve Old Gods, isnt it bit evil? Noobi666 (talk) 15:19, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Shamans worship the elements, not the elementals themselves. User:Jormungand01/sig 15:35, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Troll Shaman

Why do many consider Trolls to be the best Shamans? I'd say it's more in place in Tauren culture due to the elemental aspect and the spiritual aspect. Plus many racial traits help the weak Shamans. Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by BobNamataki (talk · contr).

Something you should ask in Forum:Warcraft lore or Forum:World of Warcraft. Snake.gifSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3.gifFor Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 04:55, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

Dark Shaman

I have seen several orc mobs that are called dark shamans. Anyone know something about them? Andreioplst (talk) 07:35, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Forum:Dark Shaman?. Snake.gifSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3.gifFor Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 08:35, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Element/resto Shaman: Which Att?

Moved to Forum:Element/resto Shaman: Which Att?.

Least played class?

I've removed this statement from the article:

Interestingly, shamans are the least played class in the game.

According to the link posted, Shamans are in equal standing with other classes (Warlocks and Rogues) and very near Warriors, as of now. Scarbrowtalk 16:31, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Wrath of the Lich King Changes Clean-up

Still pretty new here, but is it really necessary for this section to have nine subsections instead of just being a bullet list, it seems unnecessarily cluttered. Chalormendor (talk) 22:23, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Fixed. Snake.gifSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3.gifFor Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 22:43, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Do we need a section discussing races?

I'm removing the section following "Each Race has its own distinct advantage, no matter its class...".

First, it has nothing really to do with Shamans. It just lists the (primarily PvP) reasons people might choose to play different races, based upon their racials, and with the exception of Warstomp, doesn't really even tie it in with the distinctives of the Shaman class. IMO this section, while it may be of interest to those who choose their race based upon racials, is superfluous to the Shaman page. And using language about how "many players prefer X" is just personal viewpoint, and as such not really valid.

Secondly, if it were to stay, it would need to be developed further. As of now it only discusses the Horde racials (with Draenei thrown in as a sort of afterthought). R0nin (talk) 02:45, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Shaman/s

This is a point I noticed some time ago, but Kaydeethree's recent edit made me think we might as well discuss it/write it out for the record.

The question is the plural of shaman: shamans, or simply shaman. Wowpedia uses both forms variously in different articles, and even in different places in the same article.

As far as the actual real-world English language word goes, the answer seems to be that the plural of shaman is shamans. No shaman or indeed shamen. Just shamans. This is clear on both wikipedia [2] and wiktionary [3] (see usage notes and references 4,5 and 6). The word comes through Russian, and if there were a correct plural it would be 'shamasal', which simply isn't used. The 'man' in shaman doesn't appear to have anything to do with 'man' (male, human) in English, either, so shamen isn't right. Shamans seems to be the accepted plural, since with some exceptions (which this one does not have any real reason to be or history of being), in English, plurals are made by simply adding an 's'.

However, this is not really English - this is World of Warcraft! Whether for reasons of poetic licence, personal preference or just plain lack of knowledge of the correct plural for the word, Blizzard have been known to use 'shaman' as the plural form, such as in the official game guide [4]. This form is also found in some quest texts (random example: H [15D] Testing an Enemy's Strength). However, in other places they have used 'shamans' (random examples: H Shaman [4] Call of Earth, N [49] Deadwood of the North and H IconSmall Tauren Male.gifIconSmall Tauren Female.gif Warrior [3] Simple Note). I wouldn't be surprised if overall, Blizzard's choice of terms is inconsistent.

So, the correct English word is 'shamans', that much is clear. However, Blizzard seems happy to use 'shaman' and I'm not saying we should adhere strictly to the established standards for the language. Fantasy is and always has been a realm for word-play and the use of language for emotive and dramatic effect. If we are trying to adhere to the rules of the English language, it seems that 'shamans' is the way to go; however if we are rather focusing on reflecting Blizzard's choices, and the way the word is used in-game, either option could be considered viable. Of course, whether we want to go for a single, agreed-upon form for the whole site (in theory :P) or simply allow people to choose their own preferred form, is also a consideration. -- Taohinton (talk) 15:34, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Origins

The start of the History section currently reads,

Shamanism has existed since the sapient races first discovered the power of the elements of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. The yaungol, ancestors of the tauren, are credited with having the first shaman. They were offshoots of druids taught by Cenarius himself between the years -12,000 and -11,900.

The reference for the final sentence is World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1, pg. 90, the relevant section of which reads:

Other [yaungol] tribes settled in the balmy areas of central Kalimdor and reunited with their ancient benefactor, Cenarius. Returning to their ancestral hunting grounds allowed them to rediscover their old traditions. Those who studied with Cenarius learned the druidic magic of the natural world, while others mastered the arts of wielding shamanic powers.

From this it seems to me quite ambiguous where or when the yaungol first learned the shamanic arts, the implication ("their old traditions") being that they may have learned them prior to their original departure from central Kalimdor, back when they "lived in harmony with nature, following the guidance of the wise demigod Cenarius", although that's not entirely certain.

I can't see any evidence to support the statement that they were "offshoots of druids", however. In fact the chronicle specifically says that they studied and rediscovered their respective arts separately, the druids studying with Cenarius while the shamans apparently pursued their studies otherwise. (They were not "Those who studied with Cenarius".)

I can't see any evidence that they were taught shamanism by Cenarius, either, if that was the intended meaning. There also doesn't seem to be any mention of shamanism in Cenarius's lore.

Since this whole subject still seems to be somewhat shrouded in mystery I've opened this up for discussion here rather than editing the page (beyond adding a {{fact}} tag). If I'm missing something obvious please let me know! -- Taohinton (talk) 10:04, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

To me it reads pretty clearly as saying that the yaungol shaman were those who DIDN'T study druidism with Cenarius became shaman, which would definitely render both of those statements incorrect. -- DarkTZeratul (talk) 20:23, 12 February 2018 (UTC)