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Forum:Defining Secondary Leaders

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Forums: Village pump → Defining Secondary Leaders
(This is a dead topic, Please do not edit this page!)

As Coobra noted on Template talk:Infobox Horde, we need to define specific guidelines for who counts as a Secondary Leader on the Alliance and Horde templates so that we're not constantly going back and forth with adding and removing characters based on what are, frankly, entirely subjective arguments. Since this discussion is currently split between Template talk:Infobox Horde, Template talk:Infobox Alliance, Talk:Horde, and Talk:Alliance, I figured it would be best to consolidate it all into one spot.
SargerasDoomhammer proposed the following, which I think is a good starting point for discussion: "A secondary leader must be relevant for a race of the horde and part of the high govern or the high command of the army of that race or part of the leaders's trusted inner circle." --Dark T Zeratul (talk) 22:20, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

How do we define if a secondary leader "is relevant for a race of the horde" Technically, Gorax Angerfang, as he's a Dragonmaw leader, does he fit? Xporc (talk) 22:27, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm not a fan of long lists in infoboxes, so here's a wild alternative: move all this secondary leader business (and former leaders too, really) out of the infobox and into the article, strongly encouraging people to write something more meaningful than "Faction X - Led by Y" in a bullet point in the article (or perhaps moving all those bullet points to [[List of Horde members/organizations/military forces/whatever]] or something). It's a bit silly that there are "leaders" in the infobox who aren't even mentioned in the article (looking at you, Nathanos Blightcaller). — foxlit (talk) 22:58, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
That's a good point :D Xporc (talk) 23:00, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Couldn't we do both, really? Just have the most important secondary leaders, such as Thrall and Jaina, listed in the infobox and write essays about the others in the actual article? Perhaps inspired by the Scourge page/infobox? (In which case I suggest applying the same treatment to the Burning Legion. That infobox is a complete quagmire). Dajax02 (talk) 23:21, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Well then we'd have to get rid of the leaders on all factions, and more often than not it is a useful quick reference for people who are only going to look at the header and infobox. I think we can reasonably trim down the secondary leaders, but I agree former leaders should either be just former main leaders or be listed in the article body instead. ShadowShade81413 (talk) 00:27, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
A secondary leader needs to be a character that is relevant to the lore. So characters like Gorfax that should theoretically be important but have no real history should be removed. They also need an important position of influence in either their respective faction or the Alliance or Horde as a whole. Secondary leaders have led armies of the Alliance or Horde in campaigns, control organizations that have an important function in their faction or the Alliance/Horde, and/or frequently converse with the main leaders. ShadowShade81413 (talk) 00:27, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
I disagree. H [10-45] A Royal Audience should inform our answer.--SWM2448 01:09, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
A Royal Audience also has the battlemasters appear though. So it was a mistake to add people on this criteria alone. ShadowShade81413 (talk) 22:27, 22 March 2018 (UTC)


Templates Clean-Up

Other option for the Horde and Alliance templates is this:
Horde Alliance
Horde iconThe Horde
Horde Crest
The Horde Crest
Main leader IconSmall Sylvanas Warchief Sylvanas Windrunner
Secondary leaders

IconSmall Varok Varok Saurfang
IconSmall Baine Baine Bloodhoof
IconSmall Lor'themar Lor'themar Theron
IconSmall Gallywix Jastor Gallywix
IconSmall Ji Ji Firepaw
IconSmall Thalyssra Thalyssra
IconSmall Mayla Mayla Highmountain

IconSmall Rastakhan Rastakhan (in BfA)
Main races OrcOrc Orc
ForsakenForsaken Forsaken
TaurenTauren Tauren
Jungle trollJungle troll Jungle troll
Blood elfBlood elf Blood elf
GoblinGoblin Goblin
PandarenPandaren Pandaren
Allied races NightborneNightborne Nightborne
Highmountain taurenHighmountain tauren Highmountain tauren
Zandalari trollZandalari troll Zandalari troll (in BfA)
Mag'har orcMag'har orc Mag'har orc (in BfA)
Other races

OgreOgre Ogre
Mag'har orcMag'har orc Mag'har orc (remove in BfA)
Half-ogreHalf-ogre Half-ogre (Mok'nathal)
Forest trollForest troll Forest troll
TaunkaTaunka Taunka
IconSmall Hozen Hozen
IconSmall Hobgoblin Hobgoblin

Leper gnomeLeper gnome Leper gnome
Capital cities Orgrimmar, Undercity (remove in BfA), Thunder Bluff, Darkspear Isle, Silvermoon City, Bilgewater Harbor, Suramar City, Thunder Totem, Dazar'alor (in BfA)
Zones of influence Lordaeron, Central Kalimdor, Northern and central Broken Isles, and southern Zandalar (in BfA)
Languages Common, Goblin, Gutterspeak, Orcish, Pandaren, Shalassian, Taur-ahe, Thalassian, Zandali
Main factions Orgrimmar, Undercity, Thunder Bluff, Darkspear Trolls, Silvermoon City, Bilgewater Cartel, Huojin Pandaren
Other forces The Mag'har, The Taunka, Dragonmaw clan, Forest Hozen, The Nightfallen, Highmountain Tribe, Zandalari Empire (in BfA), See more forces
discuss changes here
AllianceThe Alliance
Alliance Crest
The Alliance crest
Main leader IconSmall AnduinKing High King Anduin Wrynn
Secondary leaders

IconSmall MuradinIconSmall FalstadIconSmall Moira Council of Three Hammers
IconSmall Tyrande Tyrande Whisperwind
IconSmall Malfurion Malfurion Stormrage
IconSmall Mekkatorque Gelbin Mekkatorque
IconSmall Velen Prophet Velen
IconSmall GennIconSmall Greymane Genn Greymane
IconSmall Aysa Aysa Cloudsinger
IconSmall AlleriaIconSmall Alleria2 Alleria Windrunner
IconSmall Turalyon Turalyon

IconSmall Katherine Katherine Proudmoore (in BfA)
Main races HumanHuman Human
DwarfDwarf Dwarf
Night elfNight elf Night elf
GnomeGnome Gnome
DraeneiDraenei Draenei
WorgenWorgen Worgen
PandarenPandaren Pandaren
Allied races Void elfVoid elf Void elf
Lightforged draeneiLightforged draenei Lightforged draenei
Dark Iron dwarfDark Iron dwarf Dark Iron dwarf (in BfA)
HumanHuman Kul Tiran (in BfA)
Other races

Wildhammer dwarfWildhammer dwarf Wildhammer dwarf
Dark Iron dwarfDark Iron dwarf Dark Iron dwarf (remove in BfA)
HighborneHighborne Highborne
Broken Broken
High elfHigh elf High elf
Frost dwarfFrost dwarf Frost dwarf
IconSmall Jinyu Jinyu
Cenarius's childrenCenarius's children Cenarius's children
Ancient Ancient

Furbolg Furbolg
Capital cities Stormwind, Ironforge, Darnassus (remove in BfA), New Tinkertown, The Exodar, The Vindicaar, Telogrus Rift, Boralus (in BfA)
Zones of influence Northern Kalimdor, Central and southern Eastern Kingdoms, and Central and southeastern Kul Tiras (in BfA)
Languages Common, Darnassian, Draenei, Dwarven, Gnomish, Pandaren, Thalassian
Main factions Stormwind, Ironforge, Darnassus, Gnomeregan, Exodar, Gilneas, Tushui Pandaren
Other forces Kurenai, The Frostborn, Wildhammer Clan, Pearlfin Jinyu, Army of the Light, Proudmoore Admiralty (in BfA), See more forces
discuss changes here
Changes
1) The main leader of the Horde / Alliance is the Warchief / High King, the other leaders can be considerer as secondary leaders
2) Remove the former leaders
3) I suggest change the order of all races by the order in the creation menu, that's include the order of their leaders, cities and factions, and create the section of the allied races
4) Add the cities of pandaria (Shrine of Two Moons / Shrine of Seven Stars ), the draenor (Warspear / Stormshield) and other important cities for the Horde (Revantusk Village, Mok'Nathal Village and Dragonmaw Port) in the Other major cities
What do you think about the two suggestions. Thanks -- SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 01:54, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
I like it. But I'd also would like to suggest adding the reputation related to the Allied races to the main factions. — SurafbrovWowpedia administrator T / C 02:19, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
I like that suggestion SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 02:34, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
I like those template examples, SargerasDoomhammer. I disagree with adding the Allied Race reputations, though, largely because the reputations are not faction-specific (and in the case of the Argussian Reach, very obviously not joining the Alliance).
Also, I feel like we should get rid of the Theater of Operations field, since it could literally just say "everywhere" and still be correct. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 09:24, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Argussian Reach is obviously not joining the Alliance but the others work just fine. — SurafbrovWowpedia administrator T / C 12:49, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
I Agree with you SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 14:41, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Also, what explains the Void elves having friendly reputation with the Argussian Reach already? — SurafbrovWowpedia administrator T / C 12:54, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
In my opinion, that's just for gameplay reasons, nothing more SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 14:41, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
The creation menu is simply just organized by the order the races were implemented into the game. ShadowShade81413 (talk) 16:19, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
It's a neutral order establish by Blizzard, and it's the most official order that we have. SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 16:27, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
It's literally a game mechanic code that we're able to see. The order established in World of Warcraft: Game Manual is human/orc, dwarf/tauren, gnome/troll, and night elf/forsaken. And the official allied races page orders them lightforged/highmountain, void elf/nightborne, and dark iron/zandalari. ShadowShade81413 (talk) 17:01, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
[1] Mordecay (talk) 17:04, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
ShadowShade81413, If you see the official allied races page they implement a alphabetical order and in game implement other, in the official page shared by Mordecay the order is the same game order's, so we can implement a order for the main races and other for the allied races or a general order by all the playable (main-allied) races. SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 17:33, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Survey

I propose a survey to know the opinion of each one about the changes. Sign one option please. If do not agree with the change, explain why.

Do you agree with the change in the fields:
1. Main leader
Yes:
  1. Yes SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  2. Yes Dajax02 (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  3. Yes Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  4. Yes — SurafbrovWowpedia administrator T / C 03:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
No:
1.1. Suggestions
2. Secondary leaders
Yes:
  1. Yes SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  2. Yes Dajax02 (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  3. Yes Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  4. Yes — SurafbrovWowpedia administrator T / C 03:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
No:
2.1. Suggestions
3. Main races
Yes:
  1. Yes SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  2. Yes Dajax02 (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  3. Yes Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  4. Yes — SurafbrovWowpedia administrator T / C 03:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
No:
3.1. Suggestions
4. Allied races
Yes:
  1. Yes SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2018 (UTC), - (no comment)
  2. Yes Dajax02 (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  3. Yes Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  4. Yes — SurafbrovWowpedia administrator T / C 03:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
No:
4.1. Suggestions
5. Other races
Yes:
  1. Yes SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2018 (UTC), - (no comment)
No:
  1. No Dajax02 (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (Leper gnomes, wyverns, bats, gryphon, hippogryphs... Can these really be considered member races? Are they really important enough, so to speak? (And in all seriousness, why is there a bat listed in the Horde infobox?))
  2. No Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (I agree with Dajax.)
  3. No Mrforesttroll (talk) 22:04, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (Even listing half-orcs in Horde for Garona and half-elves for Alliance for Arator is like listing goblins for Alliance for Renzik "The Shiv". Also their icons are the only ones that are fictitious.)
  4. No — SurafbrovWowpedia administrator T / C 03:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC) - (Same with the above.)
5.1. Suggestions
Some leper gnomes have since sworn fealty to Sylvannas and are part of the Royal Apothecary Society, the beasts were removed SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 21:19, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Not sure if the Highborne should be treated as a separate race. More like a group, I think. And what about half-orcs in the Alliance? There's no one like that in the Alliance. Also doubting mountain giants, Ancients, and Cenarius' kids. They are more like allies to the night elves rather than being a major part of the Alliance. Mordecay (talk) 21:56, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Mordecay about mountain giants, but in the Ashenvale war, the Ancients and Cenarius' kids fought for the Alliance and some Ancients protect Darnassus. About the canon Half-Orc (not Mok'nathal) we only see three in game and one in a comic, Garona (horde-independent) and the two Lantresor (MU and AU) and med'an and they are independent, so I think that we can remove the half-orcs. About the half-elves we only know the existant of four, the twin sons of Vereesa and Arathor alignet with the alliance and the guardian Alodi (neutral). So, we can remove them. About the Highborne, I really don't know, because all Highbornes are clasified as Night elves. SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 22:41, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
6. Main capitals
Yes:
  1. Yes SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  2. Yes Dajax02 (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  3. Yes Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  4. Yes — SurafbrovWowpedia administrator T / C 03:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
No:
6.1. Suggestions
7. Other major cities
Yes:
  1. Yes SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
No:
  1. No Dajax02 (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (It is so easy, like with the secondary leaders, to add a large number of cities/towns which doesn't really fit the category. Does Revantusk Village for instance fit the category of 'other major city'? Not to me it doesn't. And if it does, why then is neither Valiance Keep or Vengeance Landing listed? And on its page, Gilneas City is listed as abandoned, with no affiliation. Then it can't very well be on this list, can it?)
  2. No Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (I agree with Dajax.)
  3. No — SurafbrovWowpedia administrator T / C 03:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC) - (Using just Capital cities could work; wonder what other people might think.)
7.1. Suggestions
Or we can use only the Capital cities SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 00:15, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
Other option is implement a section in the article with information about the Bases of operations (Cities, Towns, Forts, Villages) and linking to this section
Horde example

Bases of operations

8. Zones of influence
Yes:
  1. Yes SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  2. Yes Dajax02 (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  3. Yes Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  4. Yes — SurafbrovWowpedia administrator T / C 03:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
No:
8.1. Suggestions
9. Main factions
Yes:
  1. Yes SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2018 (UTC), - (no comment)
  2. Yes Dajax02 (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  3. Yes Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
  4. Yes — SurafbrovWowpedia administrator T / C 03:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC) - (no comment)
No:
9.1. Suggestions
10. Affiliations
Yes:
  1. Yes SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2018 (UTC), - (no comment)
No:
  1. No Dajax02 (talk) 19:54, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (Maybe we should define exactly what is meant by this as well. Members of the Horde/Alliance (as is currently the case) or perhaps their allies instead? In the case of the former - really, the Boulderslide kobolds? Why on earth are they listed on par with important factions within the Horde?)
  2. No Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (I'd rather use this space to list Horde and Alliance-specific reputation factions.)
  3. No Mordecay (talk) 21:08, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (Maybe rename it to members or organizations instead of affiliations? I'm not certain which groups to list tho, now seems very incomplete. List of the reputation factions is ok, but I'd also like to see the other lore groups. On the other hand there's so many of them so dunno.)
  4. No Mrforesttroll (talk) 21:41, 24 March 2018 (UTC) - (Shouldn't there be a separate Allied race factions segment for Army of the Light, The Nightfallen and Highmountain Tribe as well as for including future factions such as Zandalari Empire. Oh and isn't the taunka faction called The Taunka and not just the icemist tribe.)
  5. No — SurafbrovWowpedia administrator T / C 03:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC) - (Like that idea with the other forces pretty much linking to the section on the article.)
10.1. Suggestions
Something like Other Forces? SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 21:25, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Or we can list the factions of the Allied races and use the link to the section on the article: Horde (The Nightfallen, Highmountain Tribe, Zandalari Empire (in BfA), See more forces) Alliance (Army of the Light, Proudmoore Admiralty (in BfA), See more forces)
11. Languages

Maybe merge the languages into one label instead of two? Kinda hard to say if the orcish tongue is the main in the Horde. Mordecay (talk) 23:20, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 23:37, 24 March 2018 (UTC)


Finalizing

Template:Infobox Horde / Template:Infobox Alliance

This was a wonderful survey with good points. I went ahead and updated the templates based off these ideas to the current timeline. Feel free to make any further notes here before we decide to keep this format. SnakeSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3For Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 22:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Either add High King title to Anduin and Warchief title to Sylvanas or remove the King title from Anduin. Mordecay (talk) 22:43, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
Didn't even notice he had king on his name. Fixed. SnakeSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3For Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 22:51, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
In the same vein I also removed the titles from Thalyssra, Velen, Fareeya, and Umbric. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 23:14, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
I thought we agreed, or at least didn't disagree (I haven't seen any opinion to the contrary), that Fareeya and Umbric should not be listed as main leaders? Dajax02 (talk) 23:35, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Dajax02 because in the Talk:Alliance#Revision_of_leadership many people are not agree about Umbric and Fareeya SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 23:51, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
Since discussions were all over the place I didn't see it. SnakeSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3For Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 23:54, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
Coobra, it would be possible change the order for the main races and the allied races, all survey participants agreed with this change, and please remove the Base of operations from the templates, because the Base of operations was replace for the Zones of influence, and it would be possible add this links to the Notable factions: Alliance - See more forces, Horde - See more forces. Finally I would like to thank you all for your participation. SargerasDoomhammer (talk) 23:51, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
I'd prefer listing the races per join order. SnakeSssssssssssssssssssssssss Coobra sig3For Pony! (Sssss/Slithered) 00:03, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
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